RD Saunders: [00:00:01] Your pain is not purposelessness. Your [00:00:06] pain has a purpose. And the work of the Lord is [00:00:11] tied to delivering people from brokenness, from hurt, [00:00:16] from despair, and from mourning.​Curtis: [00:00:21] [00:00:26] [00:00:31] Hi, everybody. [00:00:36] Welcome to the Run to the Hard Podcast. Today, I get to interview my friend, [00:00:41] and, uh, this gentleman I've had the chance to meet, and we've connected with several [00:00:46] times over the years through academics, through leadership programs. But over the last year, [00:00:51] um, this man has become my friend, and, uh, he is just one of those guys [00:00:56] that is motivational, he's inspiring, and I love to hang out with him.Curtis: Every time [00:01:01] I'm with him, I get so jazzed up that I feel like I can just run [00:01:06] through a wall, and, uh, that's the kind of guy he is, and I love to hang out with him. So today my [00:01:11] guest is Artie Saunders. He's the president from Ohio Christian University. And Artie, [00:01:16] love you, appreciate you. Welcome to the program.RD Saunders: Curtis, you are too kind. [00:01:21] Listen, I'm the blessed one in this conversation and in this [00:01:26] relationship, my friend. You, anyone who has Curtis Christopher as a friend [00:01:31] is among the most fortunate people in the world. SoCurtis: OhRD Saunders: I'm the blessed [00:01:36] one, and it's truly an honor to be on the "Run to the Hard" podcast. [00:01:41] Uh, I love your vision, your focus.RD Saunders: I love the audience you're [00:01:46] trying to serve, and it is a privilege to be a part of itCurtis: Well, [00:01:51] thank you. I appreciate it. Wasn't expecting that back. You're supposed to let me up you up here a [00:01:56] littleRD Saunders: I thought that's what you told me to say, Curtis. I thought I got it just right[00:02:01] Curtis: Oh, man. Hey, before we get started, uh, let me just share a couple, couple things [00:02:06] about RD. Uh, I messaged his office a couple weeks ago and said, "Hey, let me, let me have [00:02:11] a bio for RD." Well, he texted me back, and this was his response. He said, [00:02:16] "You can share what you want, but a good friend of mine, a good mentor said, 'If you're good, you don't [00:02:21] need a good introduction.'"Curtis: He said, "But if you're bad, a good introduction doesn't help anyways." [00:02:26] And I just-- It g- I, I'm sorry, it cracked me up. I thought that was the best. [00:02:31] Uh, but either way, I'm still g- you're-- It's not gonna be bad, folks, I promise. But I'm still gonna give a [00:02:36] little bit of a bio. Uh, RD Saunders, um, married to his [00:02:41] wonderful wife, Shelly.Curtis: She was his, um, college sweetheart. And, uh, if any of you [00:02:46] have had the privilege of meeting Shelly, you cannot walk away without a smile on your face. It's just impossible. [00:02:51] She's an amazing woman. Together, these two are a powerhouse. Um, I [00:02:56] love to be around them. Um, married, two children, two boys, Landon and Logan, [00:03:01] and a grandchild on the way.Curtis: Woo-hoo. It, it's the best, [00:03:06] dude. I mean, it is the best, I promise you. And I kn- I know you already know [00:03:11] that. RD pastored for 22 years in Ohio, Florida, [00:03:16] Georgia. RD followed a lot of the models and disciplines of, uh, John [00:03:21] Maxwell through his leadership programs, his church growth, and principles, and [00:03:26] has grown every one of those ministries, added to those ministries, and sometimes [00:03:31] doubled, tripled, quadrupled some of those churches.Curtis: And then had the privilege of actually [00:03:36] serving John Maxwell and the Equip team as an associate trainer for many [00:03:41] years, then became part of Network of Caring and Leading With 2020 Vision, [00:03:46] where they've had the chance to literally impact hundreds of thousands of people [00:03:51] around the world. So this is, this is big stuff, folks.Curtis: Uh, [00:03:56] 2017, RD was the vice president of advancement for Maxwell and for Equip, [00:04:01] raising a bunch of money for that ministry, and that ministry continues to thrive. There's still books [00:04:06] being written. There's still people being impacted for Christ. But in 2024, [00:04:11] your world changed forever. [00:04:16] And RD was called and voted on to become the [00:04:21] next president of Ohio Christian University.Curtis: And, uh, I want you to know we love you. We pray for you. I [00:04:26] literally drive by the campus two or three times a day, and every time I do, you just need to know that you're in our [00:04:31] thoughts and prayers, and we love you. And, um, I am going to, um, [00:04:36] sit back. Folks, I literally have my own notepad, just so [00:04:41] you know, and if you don't have one, you might wanna grab one, because every time that I've sat in the [00:04:46] presence of this guy, whether it's in his office or in a revival where he's preaching or in his chapel, [00:04:51] there's always something that I've gleaned from it and walked away with and said, "Man, never [00:04:56] thought of that before.Curtis: What a great lesson."Curtis: And so, um- Before you [00:05:01] dive into your calling and the things that God's really doing in your life right now, I think it's [00:05:06] important for people to truly get a concept of a person if they know where that [00:05:11] person's come from. I just feel like it's a, a holistic approach, and so I'd love for you to [00:05:16] share a little bit about your childhood, your upbringing and how in the world you ever ended up at [00:05:21] Ohio Christian University in this little town called Circleville, Ohio, [00:05:26] for your college career.Curtis: And so I'm gonna turn it over, man. The mic is yours. [00:05:31] Please take us on an adventureRD Saunders: Oh, you're very kind, Curtis. I, I [00:05:36] hope that, uh, that happens. But, uh, here's, here's the truth. I grew [00:05:41] up in Lancaster, Ohio, just down the road from where we are here in Circleville. [00:05:46] And, uh, while I had some godly influences, they weren't [00:05:51] directly in the home I grew up in. In fact, my father, sadly, was an [00:05:56] alcoholic, and, uh, in many ways an abusive alcoholic.RD Saunders: [00:06:01] And, uh, eventually he drank himself, um, out of jobs. He drank [00:06:06] himself, uh, out of our home. And sadly, at 54, he drank himself [00:06:11] out of his own life. And so I honestly look back on it and I [00:06:16] find blessing in it in the sense that it opened the door for my grandfather to come into [00:06:21] my life. And my grandfather was everything maybe that [00:06:26] I'd hoped my father would be.RD Saunders: Uh, he was a pleasure to be with. He taught me [00:06:31] all kinds of things. He, uh, worked hard and, and even came home and threw the [00:06:36] football with me every day. And, uh, he was frankly my best [00:06:41] friend as a young person. And, uh, so really grateful, in [00:06:46] spite of the, the things that might have caused pain, might be a source of mourning in [00:06:51] my life.RD Saunders: Uh, the Lord took that bad thing and made it something very good. [00:06:56] And, and frankly, it's the influence of my grandfather and my grandmother, my grandmother's [00:07:01] sister, my great aunt That helped me to eventually become a student here at [00:07:06] Circleville Bible College back in the day, now Ohio Christian University.RD Saunders: And, [00:07:11] uh, I have to give the Lord all kinds of, uh, praise for that fact [00:07:16] because I never had any intention of going to a place like OCU. Uh, [00:07:21] I had a vision of somehow being involved in [00:07:26] either education or maybe even in politics. I was gonna go to Ohio [00:07:31] State. I was gonna study poli sci. What a useless endeavor that would've [00:07:36] been.RD Saunders: No offense to anyone listening who does that kind of work, but in my case, I think it [00:07:41] would've been useless. But, um, the Lord had another plan. I, I [00:07:46] grew up singing gospel music, and so because I was traveling and singing, I was [00:07:51] perpetually in a culture that was wholesome and where I felt like I was [00:07:56] giving back in some way.RD Saunders: But, uh, you know, the Lord wanted to narrow the [00:08:01] focus of a calling or, or at least help me to understand something beyond [00:08:06] what I thought was ministry, and that's singing in a church. A- and that was a very [00:08:11] clear calling in my senior year of high school to full-time Christian service. [00:08:16] And, uh, someone wisely told me that a call to serve is a call [00:08:21] to prepare.RD Saunders: And before the Lord calls you into [00:08:26] his field that is white and ripe unto harvest, he calls you [00:08:31] to prepare yourself to do that. And Jesus, of course, spent [00:08:36] considerable years preparing himself. Luke 2:52 lays it out. Jesus grew in [00:08:41] wisdom, stature, favor with God, and favor with man. And if we're going to [00:08:46] have an impact in the world, we've, we've gotta grow.RD Saunders: And so thankfully, because of their [00:08:51] influence, they were connected with the church camp that many years ago [00:08:56] founded this university. And so we would go to that church camp, and I heard about [00:09:01] Ohio Christian University at that camp, and it just seemed very natural for me to [00:09:06] pay them a visit. And sure enough, uh, because of the influence of someone that many of your [00:09:11] audience may know, Doug Carter, uh, who was the president of Circleville Bible College at [00:09:16] that time, I became a student at CBC, now OCU.[00:09:21] RD Saunders: And I'm truly grateful because there was a work that God did in [00:09:26] my life on this campus that had a great deal to do with my childhood, and [00:09:31] if I hadn't come here, I don't know if that work would've happened. Uh, not to mention the fact that [00:09:36] I met my wife, I met some lifelong influencers. I grew i- [00:09:41] in ways I can't even add up and quantify today.RD Saunders: But most [00:09:46] especially, being at OCU, there was a moment that God had [00:09:51] arranged, there's no question in my mind that God had positioned, [00:09:56] I was challenged to write a paper for an English class, and so I [00:10:01] didn't even see what was coming, coming. I started to write. We [00:10:06] were told to write something about our families.RD Saunders: It was meant to be biographical. [00:10:11] And that process of thinking about the [00:10:16] childhood that I had and, and maybe in some ways didn't have, and the, the [00:10:21] heartache and, and pain and even abuse that I experienced, the Lord [00:10:26] had prepared that moment to completely wash me [00:10:31] and deliver me from the hurt, the mourning, [00:10:36] the ashes, if you will, of those broken things in my [00:10:41] life.RD Saunders: And the work wasn't completed, but I [00:10:46] could say maybe that the work was begun in earnest of, of helping [00:10:51] me get over the pain of that And looking [00:10:56] back on it, I, I owe OCU so much. You know, my education, my [00:11:01] career, my wife. But frankly, one of the greatest things was [00:11:06] the healing of the pain of my past that was at least [00:11:11] begun in that dorm room here right on the campus.RD Saunders: Just, I can look out the window of [00:11:16] my office here at OCU and see the window that I sat in front of as, [00:11:21] as God began to work, and, and the, the, the work was overwhelming. [00:11:26] I, I wept, I grieved. Uh, I remember gritting my [00:11:31] teeth at one point and saying, "I will not be a bad father." I, I was a long [00:11:36] way from being a father at that point.RD Saunders: I didn't even really have a girlfriend, much less a wife and, and children. [00:11:41] But, uh, I, I remember saying to myself in that moment, "I will not [00:11:46] be a bad father." And, and I was, I was far from perfect. I don't know anyone but our [00:11:51] heavenly Father who's a perfect father. But, uh, I believe my sons would tell you that, [00:11:56] that they had a good dad.RD Saunders: And so I, I thank the Lord for that moment of, of [00:12:01] healing in my life, and it's certainly what inspires me about what you're doing, Curtis, [00:12:06] and, and this podcast and, and your ministry. Uh, in fact, [00:12:11] at some point, maybe now, I, I have a question for you,RD Saunders: Okay.RD Saunders: And I, [00:12:16] I know-- and you may wanna jump back into my story, but I've got this question that, that's [00:12:21] just...RD Saunders: It's been on my mind because every person who's been through the kind [00:12:26] of, of grief that you've experienced and the mourning that you've had to endure, [00:12:31] um, many of those people are, are kind of stuck. [00:12:36] And, and I'm not saying that you should, 'cause, uh, uh, there's many unkind people [00:12:41] that tell someone in mourning, "Well, you just need to get over it."RD Saunders: And I-- it's just so, so awful [00:12:46] to say something like that to someone who's mourning. But at some point, Curtis, [00:12:51] there was an aha moment or, or whatever it was, where you said, [00:12:56] "I need to now help someone else." And I [00:13:01] was just curious, and, and it's possible that your audience knows well the answer to this and I've just [00:13:06] missed it somewhere, but I would love to hear what was the thing that caused [00:13:11] you to move?RD Saunders: Not that you move ever away from, from sadness or mourning or grief, [00:13:16] but you moved into a mode of looking outside of yourself to [00:13:21] others. A-and what was the thing that, that kind of launched that in your life?[00:13:26] Curtis: I, it's a, it's a really good question. And, um, [00:13:31] there's, there's a few answers, but I know this podcast is about you, but let me give you just a couple. Number [00:13:36] one, yeah, I was, I was broke. When my wife passed away, I laid in bed for three months, [00:13:41] 20 hours a day. I mean, I've told that multiple times. I had to get physical [00:13:46] medical help to get out of bed and get back on my feet.Curtis: But you're right. There's, [00:13:51] um, there's this moment, this aha moment where I had to [00:13:56] figure out how to get out of my own way. And, and it goes back to why we even do the [00:14:01] podcast. It's why we have a foundation. My wife Michal loved [00:14:06] people so much, and it didn't matter what hardship she had been through, she made time [00:14:11] for people.Curtis: She listened to their stories. She got to know them. She'd come home and tell me these [00:14:16] awful stories of some woman she met literally in the grocery store two days before and was [00:14:21] having coffee with and was trying to help them through a struggle, through the loss of a kid, through a [00:14:26] divorce, whatever. My wife modeled this.Curtis: She modeled this, [00:14:31] "I'm going to help somebody else because it's this, it's this way of getting [00:14:36] out of my own situation." It pulls you out of your own grief, out of your own stuckness, as you [00:14:41] said. And, um, I, I over the course of a year and a half or so [00:14:46] realized that I'm not gonna get out of this thing until I can start helping others.Curtis: And, [00:14:51] um, it wasn't easy. I'm, I'll be honest with you, I fought it. I didn't wanna do it. I just would rather [00:14:56] hang out at home, hide away, and I did. I hid for quite a while after she passed away. [00:15:01] But then through the help of people who love me and who've prayed for me and said-- and, and [00:15:06] reached in and said, "No, Curtis, God has more-"RD Saunders: [00:15:11] Way to go, buddy. Way to go. Yeah, I think [00:15:16] that transition, and, and the reason I ask it there, is that transition began to [00:15:21] happen in my own life. Uh, I began to recognize that the [00:15:26] problems and the heartaches that I had, the, the unfairness, the [00:15:31] disappointment, the abuse, was something that the Lord could take, much [00:15:36] like Moses' staff, and turn it into a tool, turn it into a [00:15:41] source of His power.RD Saunders: Not, not just or, or, or maybe not, [00:15:46] not completely a, a, a, a pain, but something that could [00:15:51] actually remove pain, remove my pain and someone else's pain [00:15:56] when I was able to get past it and, and then be able to use [00:16:01] it. And, and I'm sure people are in different stages of this right now on their ownRD Saunders: journey [00:16:06] with grief.RD Saunders: But, uh, thank you for, for taking that step, and, and that's a [00:16:11] big part of what you're, what you're doing with this podcast, and I hope everyone can find [00:16:16] a way to do something to, to get the focus on others. I think it's [00:16:21] naturally something the enemy wants us to do, is the enemy wants us to stay [00:16:26] down in what I call a mirrored hole.RD Saunders: A- a- and it's a, [00:16:31] a hole where we see nothing but ourself,RD Saunders: and, and we're [00:16:36] stuck down in this mirrored hole. And that's why I love Philippians 4 so [00:16:41] much, 'cause I believe Philippians 4 is the rope out of the mirrored hole. [00:16:46] Uh, you know, keep your, your focus because God is near. Uh, [00:16:51] if you got a worry, bring that to the Lord and let His peace overwhelm your worry.RD Saunders: If [00:16:56] there's any good things, if there be any virtue, think on these things,RD Saunders: and the God [00:17:01] of peace will be with you. And then, of course, it concludes with, "I can do all things through [00:17:06] Christ who gives me strength." Well, it's no wonder, because you're not living in that mirrored hole anymore. [00:17:11] You're operating in a, in an arena of, of strength and victoryRD Saunders: the [00:17:16] Lord is now helping you, uh, to be successful in spite of the, the pain that you may have [00:17:21] had.Curtis: Good stuff. AllCurtis: right, back to your story. [00:17:26] Yes, sir. Yes, sirCurtis: Little, little message, little [00:17:31] message in the Hey, thanks for letting me ask the question though, 'cause I, I was won- I don't thinkRD Saunders: I'd have [00:17:36] ever, I'd ever gotten that as many times as you and I've chatted, I don't think I'd ever gotten that answer. So [00:17:41] I, I had to get the answer.Curtis: Hmm. All right. Well, thank you.RD Saunders: Well, so [00:17:46] when, uh, when I had that, that moment of, of, um, of [00:17:51] recognition, I guess I, I think what happened there is I did not [00:17:56] know how in pain I was. I did [00:18:01] not know how much junk had been suppressed, [00:18:06] had been kind of ignored. I, I, I look at it like a junk drawer in your [00:18:11] house. You know, everyone's got a junk drawer where you just throw stuff and you... that you don't know what to [00:18:16] do with, you know? A- and I think sometimes our, our past hurts [00:18:21] find some kind of hurt drawer that we throw those [00:18:26] things into and, and we kinda, you know... Or, or even a room or a closet, and, a- [00:18:31] and we just don't go there. And I believe there's something about [00:18:36] going there that is the victory that, that God wants us to have.[00:18:41] RD Saunders: Uh, ignoring something, suppressing something, hiding something is not victory. [00:18:46] It's exposing it. It's getting it out. It's being aware of it. And, and [00:18:51] I recognize for some people, they're, they're gonna need some help to do that. They need to talk to someone who's a [00:18:56] pro. But in my case, I just had to allow the Lord, the Holy Spirit, [00:19:01] the God of all comfort, to dig down deep inside, [00:19:06] uh, in, in this dark place and, and let that [00:19:11] out.RD Saunders: And it, it, it did transform me, and it allowed for the future [00:19:16] transformations that I needed to have to become more complete, uh, what I call an oak [00:19:21] of righteousness, uh, to, to transpire in my lifeCurtis: Buddy, I just wrote [00:19:26] this down, junk drawer. You just gave, you just gave some pastor a sermon title. [00:19:31] I love it. I told you. I'm telling you folks, you're gonna get something today. [00:19:36] But, uh, I'm not a psychologist, but junk drawer should be in our [00:19:41] psychologist friend's vocabulary. I love it,RD Saunders: Well, you know, something that's true about the junk [00:19:46] drawer, Curtis, is that every so often you just, you have to go clean it out 'cause you have no more room.Curtis: [00:19:51] Yeah, exactly.RD Saunders: You know, it becomes a hoarding situation. And, and I wonder, [00:19:56] you know, I wonder how many people are hoarding hurts.Curtis: Hmm. Oh, RD Saunders: J- uh, mm, [00:20:01] remember when Jesus, uh, had the, the gentleman and he was obviously, you [00:20:06] know, in need of a miracle.RD Saunders: He had been laying there crippled, and Jesus literally [00:20:11] asks him, "What do you want me to do for you?" Well, Jesus, [00:20:16] can't you tell? The guy's severely in need. Yes, RD Saunders: but do you [00:20:21] wanna be free from that? Do you want to not use that anymore as a source of [00:20:26] attention, as a, as a reason for people to have to serve you, as a reason for you [00:20:31] not to have to act or have to serve?Curtis: or incomeRD Saunders: Or, oh boy, [00:20:36] that's a very good point. Yeah, he was getting an income. He was getting a living from it. [00:20:41] Um, you know, sometimes people are, are a little bit hung up on their pain [00:20:46] because, uh, they don't wanna, they, they don't wanna trade that pain [00:20:51] for whatever might be on the other side of it for fear of losing whatever [00:20:56] benefit they think they're getting from it. And I can assure you what's on the other side [00:21:01] is so much betterRD Saunders: than th- what you've settled [00:21:06] for allowing your pain to be your crutchCurtis: Man, that's good[00:21:11] RD Saunders: So we gotta, we gotta be honest about these things and, and [00:21:16] it's tough. I, I'm not saying it's easy. It wasn't for me. [00:21:21] Curtis: Okay, that's sermon number two. That's sermon number two if you're not counting, folks. [00:21:26] That's good. That'sRD Saunders: Oh my.Curtis: All right, so OCU [00:21:31] happens. You, uh, you get here, you have this moment. It's a starting point for you. [00:21:36] Uh, where does it go?RD Saunders: Well, it's so funny. I mean, I, [00:21:41] I've been here now, um, about 20 months and, uh, I remember when I [00:21:46] first arrived, uh, people would ask me about being a college president or some element [00:21:51] of academics, and I would say, "Honestly, I've been in academics about [00:21:56] 10 minutes." And, uh, n- you know, I've been in academics now about [00:22:01] 15 minutes, you know, and, still learning.RD Saunders: Probably the, the things [00:22:06] that opened the door for me to come were more relevant to things like leadership and [00:22:11] fundraising and that kind of thing, and plus my own personal connection here. But [00:22:16] the question that I had to process was not why the board wanted me to come or why [00:22:21] maybe some faculty members or even some students might have preferred that, but the [00:22:26] question that I had to resolve is, "God, why is this something at this season?"RD Saunders: [00:22:31] I mean, I was very comfortable where I was working for the, maybe the greatest [00:22:36] man in the world today in John Maxwell, uh, my dear friend, much like a father as [00:22:41] well to me, and we had had unbelievable success in that organization. [00:22:46] And we were living in Atlanta near our sons who, as I've mentioned, [00:22:51] or as you mentioned I should say, Curtis, we're about to have a grandchild.RD Saunders: And boy, you know, my, [00:22:56] my bride, uh, grandchildren, she's had a grandmother name for 10 years, so she's been looking forward to [00:23:01] this thing for a while. And, uh, I mean, we finally explained to our sons, "Listen, we [00:23:06] would like to have grandchildren before we're dead. Can you please, [00:23:11] please work this out?" You know? So we were heavily focused in the grandchildren [00:23:16] thing and, a- and then suddenly the Lord says, "No, it's time to go, you know, [00:23:21] 700 miles north to, to the middle of some cornfields and, and lead a [00:23:26] university that frankly has been struggling for a while and, and be in a different [00:23:31] world altogether.RD Saunders: And so, buddy, you better have a very clear definition of [00:23:36] why, and you better know it's of the Lord." So I initially, [00:23:41] uh, I had an interview and then I told them no.RD Saunders: And, uh, I [00:23:46] came back and I said, "Lord, if, if I'm to go here, you have to give me something that anchors [00:23:51] me." And the Lord is so good and so kind.RD Saunders: Even though He's already [00:23:56] spoken, He tolerates our indecision sometimes and our doubts, and, and He was [00:24:01] kind enough to give me something, and that's the incredible verse [00:24:06] that I-- You know, sometimes you read the Bible, and sometimes the Bible reads you. [00:24:11] And, uh, I had read the Bible, I had read Isaiah 61 before, but, I'd [00:24:16] never had it read to me like it was that day when I sought the Lord.RD Saunders: And [00:24:21] the Lord spoke to me. Isaiah 61 is the passage that Jesus read from [00:24:26] when He announced that He was the Messiah. By the way, don't let anyone ever tell you Jesus somehow got talked [00:24:31] into being the Messiah or He was forced into it by His fame. He said it from the very beginning, [00:24:36] so much so that those who initially heard it knew He had used a messianic passage in reference to [00:24:41] Himself and tried to stone Him.RD Saunders: So d- just get rid of this nonsense [00:24:46] about Jesus somehow being forced to become the Messiah. No, He said it from the beginning, [00:24:51] and He said it by reading Isaiah 61. And the passage talks about the work of the Messiah, [00:24:56] how the, the Lord is on me to preach and, and has anointed me to proclaim good news to [00:25:01] the poor, and all of these things, to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom [00:25:06] to the captives, and release from darkness for the prisoners, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's [00:25:11] favor.RD Saunders: And He stopped there because the next verse talks about [00:25:16] vengeance, and, uh, He did not want His ministry to be seen as something that [00:25:21] was about vengeance. The vengeance will come one day, of course, at the Second Coming, but He's [00:25:26] talking here about the work He will do, the love He will share, the work He will [00:25:31] accomplish in people's lives.RD Saunders: But when it stops there, we pick it up in verse [00:25:36] three And I believe contextually this should still be considered as a part of [00:25:41] this passage, and I really believe that Jesus still had it in mind even though he didn't read it. [00:25:46] Because it goes on to say, "To comfort all who mourn RD Saunders: and [00:25:51] provide for those who grieve in Zion, to bestow on them a crown of [00:25:56] beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of [00:26:01] a spirit of despair.RD Saunders: They will be called oaks of righteousness, a [00:26:06] planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor." And the moment I read [00:26:11] that verse, I closed the Bible. I told Shelly, "Honey, I know [00:26:16] why we're to go to Ohio Christian University, and that is it is our job [00:26:21] to create good soil in that university for the planting of the [00:26:26] acorns that God plants there, that they might grow up to be oaks of [00:26:31] righteousness."RD Saunders: And if you look back, you have to say to yourself that one-- [00:26:36] a-and this is why what you're doing is very important, and this is also why the [00:26:41] audience that's listening to this, you have a mission. You have a [00:26:46] purpose. Your pain is not purposelessness. Your [00:26:51] pain has a purpose. And in my mind, the work of [00:26:56] the Lord is tied to delivering people from [00:27:01] brokenness, from hurt, from despair, and from mourning.RD Saunders: The work that the [00:27:06] Lord did in my life in that dorm room was a part of the Great [00:27:11] Commission just as surely as if I had been one to Christ. And friends, it's [00:27:16] important to see this too. Mourning isn't just because of the loss of a loved one [00:27:21] Mourning is because of sin. [00:27:26] Sin is the thing that kills. But sin kills [00:27:31] more than physical lives.RD Saunders: Sin kills [00:27:36] finances. Sin kills families. Sin kills marriages. [00:27:41] Sin kills friendships. Sin kills businesses. Sin kills [00:27:46] communities. Sin kills nations. And all of these [00:27:51] things are reasons for mourning. In fact, there's a very real metaphor [00:27:56] here of someone in sackcloth and ashes, and this was the picture of someone in mourning [00:28:01] and, and I Googled it the other day and the, the, the image that came up was a [00:28:06] person that was wearing kind of like a feed sack, a, a something made from jute that was [00:28:11] really rough and harsh on the skin.RD Saunders: And then that person was [00:28:16] covered all over from ashes, and the ashes would literally go through the holes in the [00:28:21] garment and stain their skin and rub their skin raw. And people who [00:28:26] were mourning would literally sit out in public and grieve and mourn. But [00:28:31] in the Bible, there are two or three instances of people in sackcloth and ashes who weren't [00:28:36] grieving a lost loved one.RD Saunders: One was grieving the brokenness of their [00:28:41] nationCurtis: Mm-hmm.RD Saunders: One was grieving an abuse where they had been, [00:28:46] where Tamar had been abused by her stepbrother Mordecai. And this [00:28:51] kind of pain, you see, is also a reason for mourning. There's [00:28:56] not just the mourning of a lost loved one, there's just the mourning of loss.RD Saunders: And [00:29:01] the enemy seeks to kill, steal, and destroy, and all those things cause [00:29:06] mourning. But the work of God in the world today is to [00:29:11] rescue and restore broken, hurting people who are in [00:29:16] mourning. It can't be any other way. It's directly tied to Jesus' own [00:29:21] messianic proclamation. And therefore, ladies and gentlemen, the work that you and I [00:29:26] are called to is exactly what Curtis is doing with this podcast.RD Saunders: We are [00:29:31] called to rescue the perishing and care for the dying, but it's not just about getting people saved. [00:29:36] It's about helping restore broken people. And what's so [00:29:41] exciting to me is once those people get planted in the right place by the, the Lord, [00:29:46] once they get in good soil, a soil of a good church or the soil of a good friend or [00:29:51] the soil of a great, uh, small group or the soil of a great podcast that helps [00:29:56] them, and they get their roots down, and as Zechariah tells us, their roots [00:30:01] grow to the water, to the source of nourishment.RD Saunders: They grow to where they're fed. They [00:30:06] become strong, mighty oaks of righteousness, not burdened down with [00:30:11] despair, not burdened down with brokenness and mourning, and they become these mighty [00:30:16] oaks of righteousness growing. And it says of them, this is so huge, don't miss [00:30:21] this. It doesn't just say they are oaks of righteousness.RD Saunders: It says [00:30:26] they are known as oaks of righteousness. This means that they have an [00:30:31] others orientation. It means they're influential. It means their [00:30:36] reputation is sterling and incredible, and because of that, [00:30:41] others say of them, what an amazing compliment, "That person's an oak of [00:30:46] righteousness." And of course, it doesn't just stop there, because in [00:30:51] verse four it says these now repaired, [00:30:56] restored people who have become oaks of righteousness, it says of them, [00:31:01] they will rebuild the ancient ruins And [00:31:06] restore the places long devastated.RD Saunders: They will renew the ruined [00:31:11] cities that have been devastated for generations. [00:31:16] Now restored, rebuilt, reclaimed, [00:31:21] redeemed people who have their roots down and who are growing up as [00:31:26] oaks of righteousness, they become the transformational force of [00:31:31] the world that transforms communities and cities and [00:31:36] states and nations and the world.RD Saunders: It is the calling of Christ on all of [00:31:41] us to be delivered from our mourning, delivered from our grief, [00:31:46] delivered from our brokenness, not to live with that anymore, but in fact, [00:31:51] to use that as a springboard to become an oak of righteousness, to put [00:31:56] our roots down in God's soil, to become somewhat... something alive and growing.RD Saunders: And [00:32:01] by the way, one thing that's true of an oak tree is it grows constantly. And friends, the [00:32:06] antidote for you to be living in grief all the time, grief [00:32:11] paralyzes you. It keeps you stuck. You don't keep growing. But if you're an [00:32:16] oak or if you're becoming an oak, you're gonna be growing every year, because when we cut one [00:32:21] down, what do we see?RD Saunders: Growth rings.RD Saunders: And they're growing all the time,[00:32:26] RD Saunders: and all the time. And so you gotta keep growing. And if you're growing, you got your roots down, you're [00:32:31] getting nourished, you're thriving, now you're able to rebuild the desolate [00:32:36] cities. You're able to be a force for transformation in the world. So yeah, you've been [00:32:41] broken, you've been hurt, but oh my, what an opportunity now you have to put your roots [00:32:46] down in the goodness of God and become a transformer in the world todayCurtis: [00:32:51] Buddy, I feel like calling timeout because my head is gonna explode. [00:32:56] I'm like,Curtis: I feel like, I feel like saying, "Timeout. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." There's [00:33:01] so much there. I have so many questions, and I know I can't ask all of them, [00:33:06] but wow. I, I mean, I understand what it means to [00:33:11] be stuck in grief. I've experienced that.Curtis: I know what it means to [00:33:16] be pulled out of grief, to have people come alongside you and literally, [00:33:21] in the best way possible, gently pray for you, lead you, help you, [00:33:26] come alongside at the right time and pull you out. But what you're talking about is so [00:33:31] much more than that, is this realization that my pain can [00:33:36] truly be turned into purpose,Curtis: and that God can grow [00:33:41] us and do works in us.Curtis: And, and, um, I've, I've talked about this before on the [00:33:46] podcast, and I'll just bring it up again. I... You cannot, it's not possible to [00:33:51] go look at some of the greatest CEOs on the planet, some of the greatest pastors, some of the greatest [00:33:56] evangelists, some of the greatest leaders, and every single one of them have a [00:34:01] tragic moment in their life.Curtis: But they have been [00:34:06] redeemed,Curtis: and something has happened in their life where that [00:34:11] thing was a launchpad to what God [00:34:16] actually had for them. And that's what you're describing. And you're using the Book of Isaiah and the Word of [00:34:21] God to show that it is true.Curtis: And I am just... [00:34:26] Yeah, I'm gonna listen to this a few times 'cause there's so much good stuff you just [00:34:31] shared.Curtis: But here's, here's where I wanna go because [00:34:36] I'm thinking of this poor little freshman who comes in from a [00:34:41] broken home and has stumbled into the doors because maybe they came for [00:34:46] soccer or for basketball or something. And they're coming into this fiery [00:34:51] president who's talking about making them an oak of righteousness to go change the [00:34:56] world and change all their hurt and grief and things that quite honestly, like you as a freshman, [00:35:01] haven't even dealt with, haven't even go- let themselves go to [00:35:06] and look at that junk drawer.Curtis: And here they are sitting in a chapel service with you [00:35:11] and they're like, "What in the world?" Talk about those kids, the kids that you're [00:35:16] impacting. You're... 'Cause I watch you. I love to watch you walk across your campus, shaking [00:35:21] hands, hugging, encouraging. Guys, I'm telling you, to watch it in [00:35:26] real life is, is actually life-changing.Curtis: So talk about those kids.[00:35:31] RD Saunders: Well, um, I tell you what, this was a revelation this year to [00:35:36] me. You would have thought with all the work I'd done to study Isaiah 61, I wouldn't have [00:35:41] needed such an aha moment, but we had a time of prayer. By the way, [00:35:46] prayer isn't, isn't a one-way dictation of what you need. [00:35:51] Prayer is a two-way conversation on how to solve it, and it's amazing to me the [00:35:56] number of times we just lay out our list and, "Hey, God," you know, as if we're giving God orders.RD Saunders: [00:36:01] It's just, it's just stunning to me the lack of humility sometimes or the lack of Curtis: Say [00:36:06] that again. Curtis: Say that again. A two-way communication to solve a problem, RD Saunders: Yeah, [00:36:11] it's not a Curtis: tell or ask Curtis: God to solve it for youRD Saunders: Yeah, it's not a one-way dictation [00:36:16] to God about our problems. It's a two-way conversation on how to solve them. Uh, C.S. [00:36:21] Lewis was, was famous for saying, " I don't pray because it changes things. I pray because it [00:36:26] changes me." And sometimes the solution isn't what we think it is.RD Saunders: We [00:36:31] pray for a solution we want rather than for the answer that [00:36:36] God might have. And, and sometimes, uh, sometimes the Lord just needs to change [00:36:41] us.RD Saunders: The issue isn't some outside circumstance. It's funny how we rarely look, "God, I'm, [00:36:46] it's me, it's me, it's me." We, we, we look at it's them, it's him, it's that place, it's that [00:36:51] job, it's that person, it's whatever, and, and honestly, it's us sometimes.RD Saunders: So I was [00:36:56] praying about this vision of, of Oaks of Righteousness. We have prayer walks on our [00:37:01] campus every week, and by the way, if you're in the Circleville area, you're welcome to join us. They're usually [00:37:06] on Wednesday. We meet at the fountain out there in front of the Maxwell Leadership Center, and [00:37:11] you'd-- we'd love to have you.RD Saunders: I'd love to see 1,000 people praying for OCU every Wednesday if I could [00:37:16] get it.RD Saunders: But, uh, i-it's at, right at, uh, um, noon. [00:37:21] Usually we're gathering about 11:45. There's a little thing I'll share, and then we'll pray [00:37:26] together, and then the cafeteria's right there, and we can, we can go eat if we want to, and it works out [00:37:31] great.RD Saunders: Uh, if the weather's bad, we just move into the lobby of, of the Maxwell Center. [00:37:36] Uh, but one of the things that happened during that prayer time, you know, and I'd been telling [00:37:41] people to make sure you listen when you pray. And so I'm praying about this Oaks of Righteousness [00:37:46] thing, and man, did I ever come under conviction.RD Saunders: So much so [00:37:51] that I quit praying and went and sat in my car and just tried [00:37:56] to process what the Lord had told me, and here's what God told me. He said, "You [00:38:01] think you're raising up oaks of righteousness. You're fooling yourself. You've just [00:38:06] made it a motto. You just made it a saying. You have not intentionally..."RD Saunders: And [00:38:11] people are gonna be shocked to hear this, but this is what I was told because I have a [00:38:16] process. I have a working partner that is an AI agent called Claude. Many of you are [00:38:21] very familiar with Claude. And I work through things that I'm trying to [00:38:26] understand better, trying to know how to solve.RD Saunders: I work through those with Claude, and [00:38:31] it's amazing. It's an incredible tool, and I know there's some concerns about AI. I get it, [00:38:36] but honestly, every new thing had people concerned about it when it came along, [00:38:41] and then it became the way life happened, and AI's probably gonna be that way, too. Let's [00:38:46] just take the, the meat and throw out the bones, use the, the best of it, and, and that's what I try to [00:38:51] do.RD Saunders: And I'm telling you, the understanding that I've gotten, the Lord said to me, [00:38:56] "You haven't even taken time to run this Oaks of Righteousness thing through Claude to [00:39:01] see how's the best way to implement this on campus." And, and the Lord was saying, "You did it [00:39:06] with everything else And so I sat down for several hours.RD Saunders: It's amazing [00:39:11] how much content you can get in just a few hours of time with, with something like this. I [00:39:16] was cut to the heart because what I realized needed to happen is something we're [00:39:21] currently working on,RD Saunders: what we've figured out and come to understand is [00:39:26] that we cannot count on chapel services alone because [00:39:31] chapel services are often a place of motivation, but they aren't necessarily the [00:39:36] toolbox where you can literally work on these things and help people deal [00:39:41] with them.RD Saunders: That is the small group. And so my [00:39:46] team and I are taking this year at Ohio Christian University, I, I wanted to pull [00:39:51] the lever on that right away, and man, I was like loaded for bear and going after it. [00:39:56] And my, my wonderful provost, Dr. Krista Stonerock, she said, "RD, I really think it's [00:40:01] so good that we've gotta take time and do it right.RD Saunders: And, and we'll capture those students from [00:40:06] this year that have come in. Don't worry about it. We'll get 'em." And, and so what I did was I humbled [00:40:11] myself to my provost and said, "You know, I think you're right. I'm getting ahead of myself." [00:40:16] Guilt can make you do things, and I was probably feeling guilt that I hadn't done a better job implementing this.[00:40:21] RD Saunders: And so what we're doing is we're taking a year, we're putting together a select team of [00:40:26] professors and administrators, along with some students, and we are crafting a [00:40:31] roundtable small group curriculum called [00:40:36] Ashes to Beauty,RD Saunders: with the idea being that [00:40:41] we want to-- We-- Here's the thing: every single student, [00:40:46] every single human has ashes.RD Saunders: Even if a student has grown up in [00:40:51] the most pristine, godly Christian home, for all have sinned [00:40:56] and fallen short of God's glory. That means for all have ashes. [00:41:01] And if they haven't had ashes, they, i- in the sense of having abuse or [00:41:06] having loss or anything like that They have areas of their life [00:41:11] where they're likely to create ashes because they don't understand [00:41:16] how to serve God well.RD Saunders: And so it's not just a thing that happened to you, [00:41:21] it's a thing that you're not doing or you're not doing well enough, and therefore, [00:41:26] there are ashes in your wake. It could be in relationships and how you're treating others. It [00:41:31] could be in whether or not you're following God's calling on your life. But you are [00:41:36] becoming a source of ashes in other people's life. So regardless, [00:41:41] they, they've gotta be developed. And, and so really how I see the, uh... And, and I must [00:41:46] confess, I, I don't have a completely, uh, put-together answer to [00:41:51] this, Curtis. I'm in the discovery phase, and that's because I've humbled myself and said, [00:41:56] "I'm gonna do it right if I'm gonna do it." But here's what I have come to glean.RD Saunders: [00:42:01] Initially, we have to get people to own and understand [00:42:06] their ashes. That's where it starts. You know, if someone's like, "Well, I, I'm [00:42:11] not that person. I don't need that," well, well, then we got a problem because the person who [00:42:16] doesn't need training is a person who will be sitting through it, enduring it, and not [00:42:21] benefiting from it.RD Saunders: And so, a- and, and besides, it's not like they don't have other [00:42:26] things they have to learn and other time they need to spend. Many of our students are athletes, so they've got their sports [00:42:31] time they've gotta have. They wanna have some time to, you know, spend time with their students. So if we're [00:42:36] gonna add a piece, it better be highly meaningful, and it better be very effective.RD Saunders: [00:42:41] And so what we've come to understand is that that maybe just that [00:42:46] first year is helping students identify [00:42:51] what are the ashes. And, and thankfully, I have one of the finest, uh, [00:42:56] team of people who work in psychology. Uh, our, our Dean of the [00:43:01] School of Social and Behavioral Sciences, Dr. Sylvia McDonald, is outstanding.RD Saunders: [00:43:06] All of her professors are fantastic. So we have experts in [00:43:11] that arena who are gonna be helping to guide the actual emotional side of [00:43:16] this, the side that isn't necessarily spiritual. You know, if you break your arm, you [00:43:21] don't just sit there and pray about it. You go get a cast. And, and the same is true with [00:43:26] any kind of psychological, um, sociological issue that a [00:43:31] person has is, is yes, Jesus can heal and transform, but, [00:43:36] but sometimes you need to talk to someone with skin on, so to speak.RD Saunders: You know, you need to talk to a human [00:43:41] being who, who can help you through it. By the way, all of us have [00:43:46] to recognize that one of the first assignments we all have is to [00:43:51] help other people carry their grief Uh, if you look at that [00:43:56] passage in Isaiah 61, if this is the work of the Messiah and we are his servants, [00:44:01] how can we divorce ourselves from helping others through their grief?Curtis: I mean, yep[00:44:06] RD Saunders: Uh, not just if we've been someone who's dealt with grief and therefore we've gotta somehow give back. [00:44:11] I'm just saying it's the work of, uh, of the ministry. It, it's the work we've all been [00:44:16] called to. So all of us have to help our young people identify their grief [00:44:21] and identify their ashes. It could, it could be just a little bit.RD Saunders: It could be a great [00:44:26] big pile of it, but we, we've gotta help them. Curtis: a side note, Curtis: I, I, y- I couldn't [00:44:31] help but write that part down because, um, when you step out and do something like [00:44:36] a podcast or something like that, uh, or even have a conversation with somebody who's [00:44:41] going through grief and you've been through it, you become this lightning rod. And I think so many [00:44:46] people in the Christian, especially in the Christian world, correct me if I'm wrong, [00:44:51] just because you've been through something doesn't make you an expert to help [00:44:56] somebody else.Curtis: There is a process. And, and [00:45:01] to, and to say that I'm an expert in grief and I can help everybody in grief is [00:45:06] a- is such a fallacy. I can't. But my goal [00:45:11] through this is to help connect you with people who can, which is why I've got somebody like you [00:45:16] online. We're, we're trying to come together as a community and say, "God [00:45:21] has a purpose.Curtis: There is a plan. He, He really wants to help you right where you're at." [00:45:26] But man, I've got a whole page of notes already. This is so, so good and so rich. [00:45:31] But you are beginning to answer the question of why in the world God [00:45:36] called you to this institution, and how you're going to help these young [00:45:41] people and help them become true oaks of righteousness.Curtis: So keep [00:45:46] going.RD Saunders: Well, uh, honestly, Curtis, it's, it's a work in progress and, [00:45:51] and, uh, one of the things that all of us needs to do, you, you brought up something very, very important, [00:45:56] and that's having s- having humility and being teachable about how to deal with grief. [00:46:01] I'm not talking necessarily about our own, certainly our own, that's true, but we, we [00:46:06] can't assume that we really understand what someone has been through, [00:46:11] and one of the quickest ways to alienate them from us is to say to [00:46:16] them, "Well, I understand what you've been through." W- man, I don't know if [00:46:21] we, if we really do. I think we think we do, but we, we probably just [00:46:26] really don't. And man, you talkRD Saunders: about ending a conversation quickly. [00:46:31] Yes. I think it's okay to say something like, "You know, I've, I've been through some things [00:46:36] myself. I, I haven't been through exactly what you've been through, but I do have some understanding, but [00:46:41] help me understand what you're feeling."RD Saunders: Now you've instantly transformed that whole [00:46:46] thing into some arrogant almost understanding [00:46:51] to humble and teachable. And, uh, you know, I, I've heard John [00:46:56] Maxwell say 100 times that he who wins souls is wise. [00:47:01] And what that means is, is not that it's wise to win souls,RD Saunders: but the [00:47:06] person who has become successful at doing so is a person who has [00:47:11] become wise at doing so.RD Saunders: And the same thing is true in [00:47:16] dealing with people with grief. Those who do it all the time, who are [00:47:21] consistently working to reach and help someone, will grow wise at [00:47:26] how to do that. Uh, don't, don't ever assume you're wise on a subject if you're not. Make [00:47:31] sure that that person knows you're on their side first and that you're, you're teachable [00:47:36] on, on their particular situation, and that is just good EQ.RD Saunders: That's good E- E- y- goodCurtis: That's [00:47:41] so good. SoRD Saunders: emotional quotient to helping you help themCurtis: [00:47:46] That's good. RD Saunders: Yeah, Curtis: I'm excited for where you're going with this, and I'm excited for your [00:47:51] students. I, I wanna tell the audience that when I walk on campus, and I'll go over for [00:47:56] lunch or coffee or something, since you have arrived, there is an environment that you [00:48:01] cannot walk away and say, [00:48:06] "Wow, the environment is, is just different.Curtis: It's spirit-filled." [00:48:11] I've attended a chapel or two where I just, I walked away and said, "Man, and God is [00:48:16] doing a work here, and he's getting ready to do a deeper and bigger work." But Doc, we [00:48:21] could, we could talk for so long on a lot of these things, but I have to [00:48:26] go back. Please tell us about your wife. Please tell us about how you met [00:48:31] her and how she has influenced you and how she's a part of this ministry team.Curtis: I don't [00:48:36] wanna miss this opportunityRD Saunders: She is, um, I tell people all the time, [00:48:41] when Shelley walks in the room, it's like the sun came out. Uh, she is a [00:48:46] source of brightness, of joy, um, [00:48:51] sometimes of motivation. It's probably as much motivation in my case as it is [00:48:56] brightness and joy, whether I wanna be motivated or not, you [00:49:01] understand. But outside of Jesus, easily the greatest gift that I've ever received.[00:49:06] RD Saunders: Uh, Shelley, has a unique skill set. She [00:49:11] is a very strong leader, um, but she also is, [00:49:16] uh, someone who is one of the greatest friends. E- everywhere we go, [00:49:21] she just stockpiles friendships. And I think ladies sometimes are naturally better at [00:49:26] it than men are, and, and so she gets a tribe everywhere she [00:49:31] goes.RD Saunders: And, uh, and she's just a, a pied piper. People follow her, [00:49:36] and, uh, she's just... Like, we had this trunk or treat last year here on campus and, [00:49:41] and honestly, I'm like, "I don't think this is gonna work, but I'm going along with it, you know? I'm just, [00:49:46] I just am not sure." And I, I could not believe it. [00:49:51] There was like 1,500 people who came.RD Saunders: Cars were lined up like [00:49:56] Field of Dreams, you know, at the end of Field of Dreams when they were trying to get in. We had to have police, [00:50:01] you know, guide people in. It was crazy. And, and that's Shelley. She just, [00:50:06] she sees things where others don't and, and just has a gift of [00:50:11] seeing possibilities. Uh, she, she also is, is one of [00:50:16] the biggest reasons I'm here.RD Saunders: Um, I was worried about her. Uh, the, [00:50:21] the idea of leaving her tribe there, the home that we had built that was a truly beautiful [00:50:26] home. We had-- In fact, we had just built a swimming pool, and that pool wasn't a year old when we [00:50:31] moved. And so to, to leave that place, but most especially to leave our [00:50:36] sons and their wives and the potential of grandchildren.RD Saunders: Um, but when I was [00:50:41] praying about that, and then the Lord had given me Isaiah 61, I was worried about Shelley. And l- [00:50:46] the Lord literally said to me, "Do not worry about your wife." It's one of the... I [00:50:51] haven't always heard God audibly just tell me something, but that was one thing He told me. [00:50:56] Well, our plan was that we were gonna keep the house there, and because my job [00:51:01] involved travel, we, we could travel back and forth and see each other and so on.RD Saunders: But [00:51:06] eventually Shelley came to me And she said, "Honey, we need to sell [00:51:11] this house and completely invest and move in [00:51:16] to this new calling God has for us, and we need to give ourselves to it [00:51:21] completely."RD Saunders: And that was a great day for me [00:51:26] personally, but for this university, because that brought Shelley onto our team full [00:51:31] force, always here, and man, she is a force of nature on this [00:51:36] campus.RD Saunders: I've recently asked her to take a role that involves what I call [00:51:41] environments and culture. And the environment is about the physical [00:51:46] way things feel and look when you walk into a lobby or a classroom or a building. [00:51:51] And, and then culture is about how relationally [00:51:56] things look, how we are with each other.RD Saunders: And then Shelley has a, has a real [00:52:01] gift for understanding and communicating culture. And well, you know, th- [00:52:06] that's not how we do it. This is how we do it. You know, that's [00:52:11] not loving. This is how we're loving. That's not excellent. This is how we're excellent. A- [00:52:16] and so because of that and because of her natural leadership ability, [00:52:21] she, she can get people to do this stuff and love it, and it's just [00:52:26] something to behold, Curtis, as she works.RD Saunders: So I'veCurtis: And it's working because when I go on [00:52:31] campus and I can already see the differences just walking through buildings and things. And [00:52:36] so, you know, some people might call it the Chick-fil-A way. We're gonna call it the Yeah. [00:52:41] I love it. She'll love it too, Curtis. [00:52:46] It's a great idea.Curtis: No, it's so good. Yeah, I couldn't help for you [00:52:51] not to be able to share 'cause, um, the two of you together, and I already said this earlier, [00:52:56] are, are such a power couple. And I, I don't mean that, um, I don't [00:53:01] mean that pridefully. I mean just what God has put together. And, and God's [00:53:06] not going to call you to something that he's not gonna call her to.Curtis: And that's such [00:53:11] a... And, and, and we've seen the opposite happen. We've seen where that friction has happened in [00:53:16] people's lives, and, and, and it turned out veryCurtis: badly. And so man, I couldn't help but [00:53:21] have, have you share that moment. Um, the future of [00:53:26] OCU. I mean, you're a dreamer. you've got a lot of work ahead of you.RD Saunders: Yes, [00:53:31] sirCurtis: and we're trusting God for that. But, but just share a few minutes [00:53:36] of, man, what are some of the big things that you're planning [00:53:41] for in trying to put OCU on the map as this spiritual [00:53:46] influence in this dark world?RD Saunders: Well, I turned 61 recently, [00:53:51] Curtis, and, um, that 61 passage is, uh, in Isaiah is pretty [00:53:56] important to me, too. And, uh, so this is, uh, this may not [00:54:01] be astonishing at all, but I've put together a $61 million vision for[00:54:06] RD Saunders: OCU, and the idea being that I believe [00:54:11] that God is calling this university to an unbelievable [00:54:16] era of, of growth and impact because the Lord [00:54:21] knows that this world is desperately in need of Christian higher ed, [00:54:26] especially Christian higher ed that is not just developing students to have good GPAs [00:54:31] and not just to be, you know, nice, good Christian people, but to be world [00:54:36] changers, to be people who rebuild the desolate places, who restore the broken [00:54:41] areas and broken lives of the world.RD Saunders: And so I believe as we get this [00:54:46] place ready to become that, we're going to have more and more resources that enable us, the [00:54:51] resources of talent, the resources of money, the resources of creativity, uh, the [00:54:56] resources of connections. And, and doors are gonna continue to open because [00:55:01] we're doing what God has called us to do here.RD Saunders: And I will say, I, I've been [00:55:06] challenged recently to get over any doubts or fears about that [00:55:11] happening and just to put my head down and work to make it happen like it already has. And so that's what [00:55:16] I'm doing, and, uh, I, I have to, I have to borrow faith [00:55:21] sometimes, uh, because, you know, when you're leading it, it, it's, it's challenging, and there's...[00:55:26] RD Saunders: The enemy has no interest in that happening. I mean, just, just one young person who [00:55:31] becomes an oak of righteousness is a 50, 60-year thorn in his side [00:55:36] It, it's like the old oil well down in Logan, Ohio, where my family's from. I [00:55:41] drove by it the other day, and I remember driving by it as a kid, riding, I wasn't driving, I was just a [00:55:46] kid, and it was pumping oil.RD Saunders: And I saw it here just recently, some 50 years [00:55:51] later, and that oil well is still pumping away. And a young life that has [00:55:56] become an oak of righteousness is a life that is pumping out [00:56:01] transformation all over the world, not just in the m- the men and women called to ministry from [00:56:06] this university who serve as pastors and missionaries and so on, but also men and [00:56:11] women working in what would be called a secular assignment, uh, who, while [00:56:16] they're there, they're living for Christ, they're modeling Christ to others, and they're helping [00:56:21] bring the love and light of Christ to those who are hurting and broken in their worlds.[00:56:26] RD Saunders: Uh, we, we need both of those, and I believe that's what God has called this university to [00:56:31] become, and He is gonna send us people who are gonna hear this message and say, "Listen, I'm [00:56:36] all in. I gotcha. Let's go together." And we're looking for those kind of folks who [00:56:41] believe with us that this is an opportunity for us to truly become the salt [00:56:46] and light of this world.RD Saunders: Salt makes things better. Light makes things brighter. And that's [00:56:51] what we've got to be at Ohio Christian University, and He's gonna help us do it.Curtis: I love it. I love [00:56:56] it. And here's my promise to you. Having worked at the university for almost 20 years, uh, [00:57:01] I know a lot of alumni, and I'm gonna get this podcast in so many of their [00:57:06] texts and so many of their emails and so many of their Facebook Messengers because I [00:57:11] want, I want people to feel like they have a president who [00:57:16] understands them, who wants what's best for this university, and who wants to not only [00:57:21] represent the Lord and his purpose for the ministry, but I want them to [00:57:26] realize that they too can be a part of that vision.RD Saunders: Oh, yeah. Curtis, you, buddy. We're gonna help [00:57:31] l- Curtis: AbsolutelyRD Saunders: one more little vision? And that is, I believe that our, [00:57:36] university has to be a personal force for Christ in this community, [00:57:41] in the city of Circleville, the surrounding cities, the Pickaway County, the whole region and [00:57:46] state. To do that, one of the things that I feel very led to [00:57:51] do is the planting of what we're calling Oaks Church.RD Saunders: We're gonna be launching a church [00:57:56] on campus. It's on campus, but it's not necessarily for the campus. It's for the [00:58:01] community. It's for our students, too, who would be welcome in any church [00:58:06] because they're a part of the community. And as such, we're literally [00:58:11] going to build a church designed to raise up oaks of righteousness [00:58:16] within our community.RD Saunders: And it's my hope in the next 10 years, through things like [00:58:21] Oaks Church, through the individual ministry of our students, and through the specific work of the [00:58:26] students of OCU going out into the community to raise up 10,000 oaks of [00:58:31] righteousness among our students, among the people in the community, and everywhere our students [00:58:36] reach, to see us raise up 10,000 oaks of righteousness that are [00:58:41] bringing transformation to the world.RD Saunders: That's, that's our vision, and Oaks Church is a part [00:58:46] of it. We're not interested in seeing church people come from other churches to this church. We wanna see [00:58:51] all the churches in the community blessed and growing and thriving, but we wanna be [00:58:56] here as a force for good and for God in this community.Curtis: I love it. [00:59:01] I love it.RD Saunders: November the 8th is our first SundayCurtis: I'm gonna write that down, November the [00:59:06] 8th. We will help you put that out on social and so forth [00:59:11] as well. Man, I just have this sneaky suspicion this isn't the last time we're gonna [00:59:16] do this.RD Saunders: Well, Curtis: goal is that we get, we get to do this [00:59:21] again because it's so rich and there's so much.Curtis: I've got some good notes out of this. [00:59:26] Um, you have helped me today Curtis: [00:59:31] to become even more fearless, to become even more bold. [00:59:36] You know, I, I kinda hung the hat up on this thing for a few months because it is hard. You [00:59:41] know, I do some hard interviews with some people who have gone through some really, really tough [00:59:46] stuff, and it's draining.Curtis: I mean, there's some days I'll do a hard interview and I'll go to bed because [00:59:51] it's triggering. It brings up a lot of the grief and things that I've been through. But man, over and [00:59:56] over and over the last few months, God has put certain people like you in my path, in my [01:00:01] way and said, "This is what God's calling you to do.Curtis: Go out and be a [01:00:06] force and do it for His kingdom." And so I'm, I-- Once again, I'm inspired. Thank [01:00:11] you for doing this. And I'm gonna ask you to do... We, we have a tradition on the [01:00:16] podcast where either I'll pray us out or ask a guest to pray us out, and pray specifically for [01:00:21] those people who are listening and hearing it, um, that whatever they're going [01:00:26] through, man, there is a God who loves and cares for them and wants to do a mighty work in their life.Curtis: [01:00:31] But before I, but before I have you pray us out, let me just give a little commercial. Folks, if this [01:00:36] podcast has helped you in any way, if there's somebody you need to [01:00:41] share it with, I'm begging you, please like, subscribe, share it with your [01:00:46] friends, with your family. Um, it's on all the platforms,Curtis: if you [01:00:51] wanna find more about the podcast, you can go to RunToTheHard.com. And then if you're [01:00:56] even more inspired and say, "You know what? The Lord has, has put on my heart to help support this ministry," [01:01:01] uh, RunToTheHard.com/give is our foundation in honor of [01:01:06] my late wife Michal.Curtis: It's called the Michal Foundation. There's a dropdown there where you can give to [01:01:11] support the podcast or the foundation. The foundation literally exists [01:01:16] to help widows and orphans. We, over the last few months, we've given thousands of [01:01:21] dollars away to help get moms back on their feet with the loss of a husband or husbands or [01:01:26] vice versa, or kids, or send a much, a family that have gone through a terrible [01:01:31] tragedy on a vacation, or buy a headstone, or help with funeral costs.Curtis: And so, [01:01:36] um, that's what we're doing. That's what this is all about, and we're grateful for those who [01:01:41] participate. We would love to be on your prayer list. If you go to RunToTheHard.com, at the bottom of [01:01:46] every single page you can actually click the link that says that you could get our, uh, our [01:01:51] email. Just throw your email in there.Curtis: You can get reminders of podcasts that are coming up, as [01:01:56] well as opportunities to hear stories like this. And so, man, buddy, [01:02:01] thank you. Curtis: I'm telling you, I was looking forward to this all week long 'cause I [01:02:06] knew I would benefit from it. And so, um, if you got a minute to share, [01:02:11] and then I want you to pray us out, okay?RD Saunders: Oh, you're so very kind, my friend. Thank you. [01:02:16] I have to confess to you, I have been so blessed to be a part of this, Curtis. [01:02:21] Let me tell you, buddy, you're a warrior. You are a warrior, [01:02:26] and I'm so proud to call you my friend. Thank you also for the way [01:02:31] you've been so kind to OCU. Thank you also for the years of service you put in here.RD Saunders: [01:02:36] I stand on your shoulders every day, Curtis, so thank you, my friend, for [01:02:41] who you are and what you mean the world to so many of us, and we all admire [01:02:46] and love you. And everyone on this podcast, you should count yourself blessed [01:02:51] that Curtis Christopher is in your life. I know I do. Let's pray together.RD Saunders: Heavenly Father, we know that [01:02:56] you are the God of all comfort, and I pray right now in that life that's just so hurting [01:03:01] and broken that you'd reach down and bring healing. Help them like that, that man that [01:03:06] Jesus healed to be able to answer the question, "What do you want me to do for you?" Help them to [01:03:11] be able to say, "Lord, I don't want to be so overwhelmed by grief that I can't [01:03:16] function and serve you and serve others."RD Saunders: And Lord, would you pick them up in that moment [01:03:21] and position them to go and serve others? Help them to get their roots down [01:03:26] somewhere that nourishes them and feeds them and makes them strong again, [01:03:31] not, not bent over and nearly broken like a sapling, but growing and [01:03:36] strong and thriving like an oak of righteousness.RD Saunders: And then, Lord, show them the [01:03:41] desolate places, the, the broken places that they can go and serve. It [01:03:46] could be a neighbor. It could be a family member. It, it could be a loved one, Lord. It could be [01:03:51] someone that, that maybe they don't even know yet that you're gonna bring into their path. [01:03:56] Open their eyes to see, Lord, and open their heart to serve, and open their hands to [01:04:01] give.RD Saunders: I pray especially for this ministry. Lord, would you send them followers [01:04:06] and listeners who hit like and do all those things so that they're a part of the community? Will [01:04:11] you send them those, Lord, that could eventually be helped by it? Would you send those [01:04:16] who could be people on the podcast? And Lord, I pray that you will [01:04:21] open up and send out of the blessings of heaven resources into this [01:04:26] podcast and bless them in every way.RD Saunders: Thank you for Curtis Christopher and [01:04:31] Run to the Heart and all of those who've gone on before us that have brought us to this moment. And [01:04:36] bless this work in Christ's name. Amen.Curtis: Amen. [01:04:41] Thanks, buddyRD Saunders: Amen. Thank you