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Curtis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Run to the Hard podcast. Today's episode is deeply personal for [00:00:05] me. I have the honor of sitting down with one of my favorite preachers and longtime [00:00:10] friends, pastor Lonnie Potts. He's a man who's walked through valleys [00:00:15] most of us pray that we'll never have to face. I watched him care for his [00:00:20] aging parents.

I watched him bury them both just weeks apart. Then I watched him step away [00:00:25] from the ministry. He poured his life into. Not long after that, his [00:00:30] wife walked out on him never to return. There was no scandal, no [00:00:35] moral failure, just real gut wrenching grief. But [00:00:40] Pastor Lonnie didn't stay there. God met him in the wilderness and today he's [00:00:45] preaching and mentoring pastors across the country, and he's living [00:00:50] proof that failure isn't final.

If you've ever lost [00:00:55] somebody, let go of a calling or watched the life that you built fall apart. [00:01:00] This episode is for you.

[00:01:05] [00:01:10] [00:01:15] hi everybody, and [00:01:20] welcome to the Run to the Hard podcast. Today is a special treat for me, [00:01:25] particularly, you know, not, not all of us get a chance to interview and talk to some of our [00:01:30] spiritual heroes.

And today I get to do that and I'm excited about it. [00:01:35] Um, Lonnie Pots, um, longtime friend, [00:01:40] longtime pastor, um, was here, was here in Circleville, Ohio [00:01:45] when my wife and one child at the time, clay was two years old. And we [00:01:50] took a job at then, it was Circleville Bible College and we showed up on the doorstep of a, of a [00:01:55] church called Jefferson Church, and, um, met Pastor Lonnie Potts for the first [00:02:00] time.

And I, I'll never forget because we visited one time on a Sunday night and we [00:02:05] never left. And, um, to hear him preach the gospel and be such a [00:02:10] wonderful Bible teacher, and not only that, I was a young. Father, [00:02:15] I was a young professor. I, I didn't know a lot of things at the [00:02:20] time, but, um, Lonnie has not only mentored me, but he's mentored many, many, many young [00:02:25] men and families along the way.

And so, Lonnie, welcome to our [00:02:30] podcast.

Lonnie: Thank you, Curtis. I, uh. I remember that Sunday night you came to [00:02:35] Jefferson, and I, I remember that very clearly. could almost tell you where you were [00:02:40] sitting. You were sitting on the right side about halfway back, and, uh, that was the first time we met, [00:02:45] and I, I remember it well.

Curtis: You have a better memory than I do.

Lonnie: I remember it [00:02:50] well.

Curtis: Well, the beauty of coming in as a young family is not only [00:02:55] did you know you take us in and, and honestly you put us to work, which was great. You [00:03:00] said, Hey, young family, young blood energy, we've got things to do. And [00:03:05] so I remember jumping right in, but a year and a half later you dedicated my daughter, [00:03:10] coral Lee, um, in that very same church. And, uh, what a blessing [00:03:15] not only to come as kind of the new family, but also have you as my pastor and be able to [00:03:20] dedicate our daughter for the first time in that church. And so those were great memories.

Lonnie: [00:03:25] Yeah, those are some of the blessings to be able to, uh, be at a, be at a [00:03:30] church for a long time. And I remember we talked to you about working with the, the [00:03:35] young families. You remember, we, were out of room and so, uh, one of the [00:03:40] local businessmen here in the um, gave us a, a [00:03:45] mobile, you know, mobile unit.

And we put that out in back of the, uh, of [00:03:50] the church. We didn't talk to zoning that became a problem. uh, [00:03:55] remember you taking the young couples out into the, into the mobile and, uh, [00:04:00] mentoring them. Those were good days.

Curtis: They were. Tell us a little bit. We're [00:04:05] gonna get into some, you know, tougher conversations here after a bit. But [00:04:10] take, take people through that journey because when I first showed up, I was [00:04:15] 28 years old, young guy. Um, we were in a, in a building that you, I [00:04:20] mean, it was packed. We, we were, we were packed out. We were using buildings across the [00:04:25] street.

We're using mobiles out back, and we were running 200, 250. But then [00:04:30] God gave you a vision and I mean, it was amazing to watch [00:04:35] what happened. Just give us a short timeline where the next few years, what happened.

Lonnie: Yeah. [00:04:40] Well, uh, we came to, to Circleville Jefferson. [00:04:45] It would've been, uh, our first message would've been the first, 19, [00:04:50] 19 89. And, and we followed, uh, uh, a great leader in Dr. David [00:04:55] VanHoose. The church had done so well under his leadership, and, [00:05:00] uh,

Curtis: He's my, he's my neighbor by the way.

Lonnie: yeah. He is your

Curtis: He [00:05:05] is. Yeah. He, he still goes. It's awesome.

Lonnie: he's [00:05:10] amazing.

Curtis: Yeah.

Lonnie: And, uh, he was an amazing leader. I, I, I felt, uh, some [00:05:15] concern about whether or not I would be able to, uh, to continue, um, [00:05:20] in the legacy that, that he had left, which was a legacy of growth and [00:05:25] development and, um, just wonderful things the church. And I had some, I had some [00:05:30] significant doubts about that, quite honestly. Um, I could [00:05:35] shepherd. I knew I, I knew how to preach. I felt I did anyway, and [00:05:40] how to teach and to, and to baptize and to, uh, lead people to the Lord. And [00:05:45] the shepherding aspect I, I had no problem with, but I was a little concerned [00:05:50] about my, my leadership, uh, [00:05:55] capacities. And, um, and so, uh, for a few years, um, we [00:06:00] kind of struggled along.

I, I said, uh, early on we grew the church from. [00:06:05] And those first two or three years, we grew the church from 250 to 211. [00:06:10] Uh, so it was a bumpy start. It was a very [00:06:15] bumpy start, and a lot of that was, uh, I, I just didn't know. I just didn't know if [00:06:20] I, uh, could do what needed to be done there. And, uh, we were, [00:06:25] um, we were attending a, uh, one of the Maxwell [00:06:30] conferences.

It was in an Anderson, Indiana, one of the church grow conferences in those [00:06:35] days. uh, I was in a, uh, seminar with Dan Ryland. Dan [00:06:40] Ryland was. Uh, administrative assistant to John Maxwell when he was at, [00:06:45] uh, Skyline in, California. And, uh, I still [00:06:50] remember it was in the afternoon we were at, in the, the, the big historic [00:06:55] colonial college church down in the basement. And, uh, it had the Be Free in the [00:07:00] bell. uh, Dan Ryland was, uh, was talking, teaching us about [00:07:05] leadership. And, uh, I still remember, um, [00:07:10] bringing Dow into that, that seminar. as the old, the [00:07:15] bell in the, uh, in the church Rie of that big, beautiful historic church, I still [00:07:20] remember it struck three, it was three o'clock in the afternoon. And as the bell [00:07:25] told three, Dan Ryland made a statement and he said, uh, [00:07:30] men, go home. lead or leave [00:07:35] and let somebody else do it.

Curtis: Mm.

Lonnie: And, uh, God [00:07:40] spoke to my heart in that moment. It was a transitional moment. It was a transformational moment, [00:07:45] spoke to my heart and I, I I, I, I, I [00:07:50] communicated with the Lord in, in a time of prayer right at that moment. I will go [00:07:55] back and, uh, have brought me here. Uh, [00:08:00] you don't make mistakes, and go [00:08:05] back and to the best of my ability with your grace and, and help and whatever [00:08:10] capacities you have. Um, the, for me, uh, [00:08:15] I'll go back and lead. And so it was a transitional moment, and we went back [00:08:20] with the determination that, that, that we would do that and was kind of, it was amazing. [00:08:25] when the transformation took place in my heart, the church began to be [00:08:30] transformed and, um, only transformed leaders, transformed churches.[00:08:35]

Curtis: Hmm.

Lonnie: And there was a transformation that took place. And, and the needle almost, [00:08:40] I, it is very, very hard to explain, but, uh, the needle began to move the other direction [00:08:45] almost immediately. Uh, we began to grow. People began to come. [00:08:50] Uh, our, our, our ministry, uh, participation [00:08:55] increased and there was just an excitement that came. and with, [00:09:00] with a spiritual revival on spiritual renewal. Uh, and this would've been [00:09:05] 93, uh, maybe, 94, somewhere there. And [00:09:10] then, um, from that time until we, uh, we, we, [00:09:15] relocated on, on 76 acres about three miles away.

[00:09:20] We, we outgrew, we, we out, we were outta seating, we're out of [00:09:25] parking. so, uh, we made the decision it would be better to [00:09:30] relocate than to, to try to, to build where we are. And God [00:09:35] miraculously, in a very miraculous way, through one of our, um, through in a realtor that, [00:09:40] that attended our church, uh.

I up the door for 76 acres, [00:09:45] three miles away. And that began, that began the crossroads story. [00:09:50] And um, so in November of 2001, [00:09:55] uh, we opened, uh, the new facility after, uh, having [00:10:00] sold our previous facility. We worshiped for a year at what was then Circle [00:10:05] Bible College. uh, it was at Circle Bible College that, uh, [00:10:10] we, we went through the 400 barrier. we grew there and, uh, we had [00:10:15] people saying to us, well, you'll go out there and die. And, you know, our response was, if God has a [00:10:20] vision, for us on the 76 acres, then God has a vision [00:10:25] here. And so we actually, we actually grew there. And so we went [00:10:30] from 211 to 525. It was just, it was [00:10:35] just an amazing ride. And, uh. you know, all glory [00:10:40] goes to God. Uh, you look back on that and you just recognize that, uh, it [00:10:45] couldn't have been us. It had to be him, but

Curtis: I, I want to just, I want to [00:10:50] insert here and say, as a young father and as a young husband [00:10:55] and taking a job in a community that I didn't know anybody and getting [00:11:00] involved in a church where you were the leader of that church, I wanna tell you what it was [00:11:05] impactful because. You, you go into a church, you see the [00:11:10] growth, you see the excitement, things are happening, and then all of a sudden, we all know these realtor people you're [00:11:15] talking about.

You know, they've, they've been a blessing to all of our lives. And, um, and then one day you stand [00:11:20] up and you say, Hey, we sold our building. And everybody's like, what are we gonna do? 'cause it wasn't just [00:11:25] sold it. You sold it, it was gone. Like we had to be out of there. And we had this [00:11:30] property down the road, but we didn't have a building to go to.

And I just remember as a young person, [00:11:35] a young man. Thinking about all the strategies it was gonna take to [00:11:40] figure this out, and yet, and yet, God, you know, I mean, there was another [00:11:45] church on that campus at the time, and Crossroads goes into the gymnasium in the back and [00:11:50] we, and, and I mean, we've got semi-trucks to, to, to haul and to, you know, hold [00:11:55] chairs and we're setting up and tearing down and we're having Sunday school class and classrooms on the [00:12:00] campus and down the road.

I mean, it was the most amazing controlled [00:12:05] chaos ever. And you, you were at the helm of that. And so, as a young man, I, I want [00:12:10] people to feel what that was like. It was crazy [00:12:15] exciting. And I'll never forget the capital campaign dinner that we had [00:12:20] in that gym and how impactful and powerful that was, [00:12:25] because people who don't know Lonnie Potts, he may be small in stature, but [00:12:30] he's a giant when it comes to his faith and when God gives him a vision, and, [00:12:35] and this was a crazy vision.

I mean, to go from 250 at that little church on [00:12:40] Jefferson to over 400, 500 in a rental [00:12:45] facility on the college campus is unheard of. [00:12:50] I mean, it's unbelievable. And then at that point, I think, uh, I think I [00:12:55] was on the board at that point and part of the capital campaign when we began to build our new [00:13:00] facility.

And, um, man, for me it was a [00:13:05] blast. It was an absolute blast to be part of that and to, and to go to [00:13:10] those meetings where you've got blueprints laid out all over the tables and we're dissecting and [00:13:15] trying to strategize and figure it out. But it also came at a challenge. Those were some challenging [00:13:20] times too.

It wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. Speak, speak to that a little bit.

Lonnie: [00:13:25] Yeah, it definitely wasn't easy. Uh, there were a lot of challenges. Uh, [00:13:30] one of the great challenges that we had was [00:13:35] an unexpected challenge. We had, um, uh, a great, a great [00:13:40] challenge from, uh, some, some individuals that, uh, in [00:13:45] the community that we're living, uh, nearby. And, um, [00:13:50] um, there was, um, a desire that the church [00:13:55] on, on their part that the church wouldn't be built.

I, I, um, [00:14:00] back on that, they, there were just very unfounded fears on their part about, [00:14:05] uh, the impact that a, that a church in a, in a. In [00:14:10] a area that had been, uh, vacant for years and years and years, what kind of [00:14:15] impact that was going to have on them. And, uh, looking back [00:14:20] across the years, the, I would have, I would hope that they would say that the impact that it had, [00:14:25] uh, was, uh, was positive, not negative, [00:14:30] uh, it resulted in, uh, an extended period of time, where we were [00:14:35] having to deal with, uh, political issues and just not [00:14:40] able to get started with the project.

And I [00:14:45] remember, um, and we had, we had an attorney that attended the church that particular point in time, and [00:14:50] he was helping us through those hurdles. um, [00:14:55] I remember, uh, in, in our office, uh, being at, being in our, our, our. [00:15:00] Our office, we, we maintained our office facilities, which were in a house, [00:15:05] uh, located to our previous church.

And we maintained that. And I remember [00:15:10] coming to a point when, uh, of just feeling that, asking the Lord [00:15:15] have, you know, have we led these folks into the desert? [00:15:20] Uh, and they're kind of, there began to, came, come a point when you began to have [00:15:25] some serious, uh, questions. Did we miss it? And I had people that were [00:15:30] saying that.

We had people that were saying, well, if we were really in the will of God, then we wouldn't be having all [00:15:35] these problems. And, and we tried to push back on that and say, well, [00:15:40] maybe, uh, the fact that we're having all these problems uh, evidence, we are in the [00:15:45] will of God. But

Curtis: Absolutely.

Lonnie: through. And I remember going to prayer [00:15:50] and, um, saying, Lord, have we led them into the desert?

What do we need [00:15:55] to do here? I, I, I, I don't know what else to do. There came [00:16:00] a, uh, in that moment, there came, uh, uh, a peaceful resolve in my [00:16:05] heart that, uh, we were going where God was leading and we needed to [00:16:10] do, we needed to finish. And I remember I got up, uh, [00:16:15] from the prayer time immediately called our attorney and discussed the situation with [00:16:20] him.

And then, uh, he said, well, get on the phone uh, tell the [00:16:25] contractor to, to be on the land tomorrow and, uh, start to dig. [00:16:30] And so we did that. And so the, the whole situation [00:16:35] finally forced to, to a good conclusion. [00:16:40] But, uh, those, those, there were some pretty dark moments in terms of you begin to [00:16:45] question, uh, have we made a mistake here? Um, [00:16:50] but, um, God has a wonderful way of, that. And, uh, we [00:16:55] push through and, uh, church has been there now about 24 years, and, [00:17:00] uh, as far as I know, there's no, there's no, there's no problem in the [00:17:05] community anymore.

Curtis: Well, the beauty is, is that a lot of our church folks bought up some of those [00:17:10] homes around the church

Lonnie: true. That, that, that, that, that, that did help the

Curtis: and it [00:17:15] helped. It helped a lot. Lonnie, there's a moment back then when we were [00:17:20] going through some of those conversations where you used the [00:17:25] children of Israel, um, and now you used that analogy for [00:17:30] many, many sermons. And I remember there was a special moment when you had us [00:17:35] all as families take rocks

Lonnie: Mm-hmm.

Curtis: and put memories in [00:17:40] scripture and our name on them.

Tell us that story because for me, as a young parent, that was so [00:17:45] impactful.

Lonnie: Sure. Well, there were probably two Old [00:17:50] Testament scriptures that, um, think I, I, I [00:17:55] impacted, impacted us personally kind of gave us a biblical [00:18:00] parameters, uh, for our journey. One of course was Nehemiah's chapter one, two, and three. That was [00:18:05] pretty huge. uh, the other was, was Joshua one, two, and three.[00:18:10]

And, uh, I'm sure you'll remember that, um, [00:18:15] our, our, our verse was Joshua, chapter one and two. [00:18:20] Moses, my servant is dead now, therefore, uh, speaking to Joshua and all these [00:18:25] people rise and over this Jordan, uh, into the land that I promised to [00:18:30] Abraham, Isaac, and, and, uh, and Jacob. And so we, we, we [00:18:35] claimed, um. We claimed that promise. And, uh, we, the 76 [00:18:40] acres, we, we claimed that as our promised

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: And, uh, we were gonna cross [00:18:45] over, over the Jordan. Um, uh, that was kind of our [00:18:50] Uh, the first thing that we built on the land was a prayer chapel. By the way, the prayer [00:18:55] chapel still there. Uh, we, we, we built a prayer chapel because we wanted [00:19:00] to begin to do something on the land. And, um, we, so we used the [00:19:05] prayer chapel for prayer times. You probably would remember some of

Curtis: Yeah, absolutely.

Lonnie: that was the first [00:19:10] thing that we did. Uh, we built the prayer chapel. We had prayer times on the land. And [00:19:15] then when we, then, when we, um, got a little farther along, uh, we, [00:19:20] um, we uh, focused on the fact that [00:19:25] when. The children of Israel, um, crossed [00:19:30] the, crossed into the promised land. Uh, the first thing that they did, uh, one of the [00:19:35] first things they did of course was stack, stack up stones. [00:19:40] Um, and, uh, the stones then, uh, were a reminder, [00:19:45] uh, to remind them to remind future generations of what [00:19:50] God had done for them. it wasn't [00:19:55] by their power, their might, their wisdom. That they were able to enter into [00:20:00] the promise. It was by the grace of, of God and their faith to follow. And [00:20:05] so we asked everybody to take a, to take a stone and on the stone [00:20:10] to write some expression, some scripture of expression of praise. [00:20:15] And so in front of the prayer chapel, we went down and in front of the prayer chapel, we stacked up [00:20:20] our stones and we called them in the tell stones is what we [00:20:25] called them. uh, the stones were telling the story of what, what God, [00:20:30] uh, what what God had done and what God was going to do. And, um, it [00:20:35] was a very tangible moment. It was something very, very tangible and very [00:20:40] meaningful and very spiritually formative. Uh, when we just got together down there and stacked up the [00:20:45] stones and prayed and, and claimed that land that, uh, [00:20:50] that, that, that God had, uh, had, had given, given to us. [00:20:55] Those stones, by the way, to the best of my knowledge, I think I have this [00:21:00] right. Those stones, by the way, near as I remember, can [00:21:05] remember, are now buried the base of the current church sign.

Curtis: [00:21:10] Yeah, they're still there. They're still there. Yep.

Lonnie: still there. So we had to move them and move [00:21:15] the prayer chapel, but the stones are still

Curtis: I.

Lonnie: And, um, it was a [00:21:20] very spiritually formative moment that we, you know, we claimed the land and [00:21:25] said we, we, we would rather have tell stones what [00:21:30] God done, as we have followed him in faith [00:21:35] than to have tombstones in the wilderness when we, uh, [00:21:40] when we didn't go, when he, where he was leading. So that was kind of our mantra, you

Curtis: [00:21:45] Yeah.

Lonnie: the Jordan into the promised land and, uh, we just kind of, uh, built, [00:21:50] uh, a lot of tangible things, uh, around that.

Curtis: And as a [00:21:55] young family, that was very impactful. My children participated in that. [00:22:00] My children have stones that are in that pile, and so as a young family to, [00:22:05] to buy into the vision, to buy into what God was doing to be a part of that. Um, Lonnie I'll, [00:22:10] I'll forever be grateful. Those were huge moments that down the road have even impacted me [00:22:15] more in my thinking of how God's kingdom works, you know, of [00:22:20] understanding how God grows things, how he does things, how he impacts things, even [00:22:25] during hardships, you know, there were some hard moments.

In, in some of that timeframe, [00:22:30] uh, to get us that point. But not only did we get a building built, not only [00:22:35] did we move from the college campus out to that building, but the growth didn't [00:22:40] stop. I mean, you shot right up through 800 and um, God was bringing us [00:22:45] people for music and for children's ministries and you know, there was [00:22:50] already a, um, a really thriving daycare that came from the old building.[00:22:55]

And then you had the craziest idea of starting a Christian school of all [00:23:00] things. And, and I'll never forget, [00:23:05] my wife at the time used stood up on Sunday morning and said, Hey, there's a meeting today. We're gonna, we wanna [00:23:10] start a Christian school. We don't know what we're doing or how we're gonna do it, but we feel like God wants us to do this.

And, [00:23:15] and I, and I remember at the time my wife was homeschooling the kids. And, um, [00:23:20] she said, Hey, we should just, we should go to that just to hear about it. What's going on. I'm thinking why we, [00:23:25] we already have a plan. Right. And then, you know, God had [00:23:30] other plans. Right. Talk about that just a little bit.

Lonnie: Yeah. I don't know if you remember [00:23:35] this or not. You may, you may or you may not, but, um, I. We, our [00:23:40] family was shopping at the old Walmart store, not the current one, but the old Walmart [00:23:45] store. And, uh, we were in,

Curtis: Hmm.

Lonnie: were very, I I still remember, we're standing very, very near the [00:23:50] pharmacy, I think. And you were there and we were chatting and, uh, I, [00:23:55] and I, I, I said to you then, I believe God has a vision, [00:24:00] uh, for us to start a Christian school. And I sensed [00:24:05] then, uh, really believed then that if there were gonna be anybody that, that, to, [00:24:10] that up, it would be you and, and your family.

Curtis: [00:24:15] Yeah, you didn't, you didn't say that then.

Lonnie: I did not say it then. I didn't say it then. I didn't [00:24:20] call it then that, that, that, that came later. But I was pretty sure it was gonna be you. [00:24:25] And, um, and, and, and indeed it turned, it turned out to be that [00:24:30] way. Um, we felt that, um. [00:24:35] That there was a place, uh, in ministry, [00:24:40] uh, in, in, in our community for, for parents [00:24:45] that, uh, had children that, uh, weren't just, uh, uh, fitting, [00:24:50] uh, fitting extremely well in, into the public school system. [00:24:55] we, we had our, our daughter, uh, [00:25:00] Kaylee, that had suffered, uh, with, uh, with seizures and chiara [00:25:05] formation and number of things. And our experience with, [00:25:10] with the public school just is, just wasn't working. And, uh. [00:25:15] So we began to, to, to seek the Lord on that. And um, [00:25:20] uh, God I think began to open up that door that there was a place for that kind of [00:25:25] ministry. Um, we already had another very vibrant Christian school, [00:25:30] uh, in the community, which is fine. Uh, we didn't see that our vision was [00:25:35] competing with that vision at

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: And so, um, [00:25:40] yeah, you, you you'll remember it was like you said, it was, it was pretty [00:25:45] late spring. I mean, we're looking, talking about March and about, we [00:25:50] don't have staff and we don't have students. We don't have anything. we were committed to [00:25:55] open the school in the fall. And, uh, in September. [00:26:00] And, uh, by God's grace, somehow that happened. You, you and your family [00:26:05] agreed to lead and, um, we, um, selected some [00:26:10] curriculum

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: and, lo and behold, we had what about 20 kids? We

Curtis: Yeah,[00:26:15]

Lonnie: out with that group of about 20, 25 in the fall, that [00:26:20] was a tremendous blessing. And um,

Curtis: it was an awkward conversation because obviously I [00:26:25] had a full-time job. I was working at the college, I was coaching and teaching, and the [00:26:30] president was Dr. Conley at the time. And I remember, I remember sheepishly setting up a [00:26:35] meeting and going to him and saying, so Doc, um. So we'd like to start a Christian [00:26:40] school at Crossroads.

Oh, that's great. And Lord's asking me to help start it. [00:26:45] Well, how's that gonna work? I'll never forget the, I'll never forget the reaction. [00:26:50] And, and yeah. And I remember saying, well, I really think if you will [00:26:55] allow me a little bit of leeway, I think I can do both. And, and, uh, I, [00:27:00] I just remember him just shaking his head and, and I'm thinking to myself, there's no way he's gonna let me do this, [00:27:05] you know, in my mind.

'cause if you knew Dr. Conley, he's just kind of a straight shooter in your [00:27:10] face. There was, you just knew exactly what he was thinking. And I'm thinking, there's no way. And, uh, but [00:27:15] that's where God was, you know, directing and helping all of us through those times. And, and he said, you [00:27:20] know what? I'll let you do it for a year.

We'll figure this out. And so I said, I'll work my tail off for you. I'll do [00:27:25] the things and my responsibilities here. I might have to slide over for a meeting or two. You know, we don't [00:27:30] have any students. I've gotta recruit and get families. And anyways, so [00:27:35] again, super. Formative years for [00:27:40] this guy as he's learning to navigate, you know, raising a family, [00:27:45] having a ministry at the college, and then also being, you know, at that point I was trying to [00:27:50] be the less, the best lay person I could under your leadership at [00:27:55] Crossroads at the time.

And so, yeah, what a ride. What a ride

Lonnie: have [00:28:00] done that without, your leadership, Curtis, that could never have happened. [00:28:05] The thriving now.

Curtis: it is.

Lonnie: they've had their fourth graduating class [00:28:10] and, uh,

Curtis: Yeah, it's pretty awesome to see, to see what's happening. I've, I've [00:28:15] gotta interrupt you because I talked to a good friend recently and we were talking about [00:28:20] Lonnie quotes because you, you had the [00:28:25] best quotes and you, you always would tie them to a message and, uh, he and I [00:28:30] were, were actually.

Texting back and forth, you know, favorite Lonnie quotes from [00:28:35] the past, and I'll tie it back to our story here in a minute, but you know, one that we've [00:28:40] all learned to love is you would end every service with go with God, and he'll go with [00:28:45] you. And it just became, you know, it just became all of our mantra.

[00:28:50] Like if you ever ended a service and didn't say that we were disappointed, like [00:28:55] that was just who you were. But um, I remember in some of those early [00:29:00] capital campaigns, and then you began to use it on a regular basis, but it was one of those early capital [00:29:05] campaigns, you said It's not equal giving, but it's equal sacrifice.[00:29:10]

And it stuck for some reason. It just stuck and it [00:29:15] helped so many of us to become not just tithers. But it helped us learn to [00:29:20] be givers and it helped us learn to what it meant to, to be a sacrificial [00:29:25] giver. And, um, I want you to know I appreciate that because you have helped me in that [00:29:30] area where it's not mine anyways.

It's all god's and, um, [00:29:35] you know, use it how he wants. I just want to be available. Um, [00:29:40] another great one. You used out, out a second, Samuel, you said, I will [00:29:45] not offer anything which cost me nothing.

Lonnie: Mm.

Curtis: That's [00:29:50] powerful.

Lonnie: Mm-hmm.

Curtis: And you, you used it regularly. Um, [00:29:55] the one I think if, if memory serves me correct, you came back [00:30:00] and did the first graduation at Crossroads.

Is that correct?

Lonnie: [00:30:05] That is, that is true.

Curtis: Yeah.

Lonnie: years ago.

Curtis: And, um, you used to use this in [00:30:10] messages on a regular basis. You would use it, especially in marital messages in who [00:30:15] you're choosing. But you, you always talked about the three Gs, and I think you use this even in [00:30:20] your, in your, um, message to the first graduating class, the [00:30:25] three Gs.

What is your goal? Who will go with you and [00:30:30] who will be your guide?

Lonnie: Mm-hmm.

Curtis: He used it often. [00:30:35] And, uh, anyways, I want you to know that all these years later, people are [00:30:40] still using Lonnie quotes. They have, [00:30:45] they have lasted the test of time and no, they, they're still out there. And, uh, you know, [00:30:50] I'm part of Philip Tipton Sunday school class and, uh, yeah, you're, you're still brought up on a regular [00:30:55] basis.

You are loved and appreciated. Um, have I missed any of 'em? Do you [00:31:00] remember any ones that I haven't hit?

Lonnie: there, there may be more. Uh, you know, a lot, a lot of those quotes we [00:31:05] picked up from, uh, from our, our stewardship campaign with, uh, [00:31:10] John Maxwell's group,

Curtis: Sure.

Lonnie: and, uh, just stuck. They [00:31:15] became ours. Yeah.

Curtis: Yeah.

Lonnie: The go with you go with God, he'll go with you. [00:31:20] that became pretty standard.

I remember one time I forgot to say [00:31:25] it, all the, the teenagers shouted it back at me. [00:31:30] so, uh,

Curtis: I'm telling you, it was expected. You couldn't, once you started it, you couldn't miss it. [00:31:35] Yeah. It was good. No, those were some, those were some really good years. And [00:31:40] then, you know, somebody might be saying, you know, Curtis, why is, why are [00:31:45] you having Lonnie on this podcast? You know, this is the run to the Hard podcast.[00:31:50]

And so we're gonna get there. Um. I also wanted to take [00:31:55] this opportunity 'cause I wanted to honor you. I wanted to let you know how much you are [00:32:00] loved and appreciated and how many, you know, Lonnie, I'm 56 years old [00:32:05] now. You know, I met you at 28. I'm just a young, I'm just [00:32:10] a young dad, young husband, trying to figure life out.

And you, you [00:32:15] poured into me, allowed me chances to minister in that church and gave me [00:32:20] opportunities and, and not just me, I mean dozens and dozens of young men at the [00:32:25] time that you've given opportunity to be a part of something that was, [00:32:30] man, it was so unbelievable of a ride and we got to see God all [00:32:35] over it and we got to see you be used of God to lead, [00:32:40] um, a lot of us.

And so a lot of us men, [00:32:45] um. Hold you in high regard. I just want you to know that. But [00:32:50] as life happens, as life happens, and, and I'm no [00:32:55] stranger to life happening, you know, some of those later years, um, when I'm [00:33:00] at your church, we've gone through all of this unbelievable growth and God's been doing so [00:33:05] many things.

You know, I had, I had problems in my own home that I couldn't put my [00:33:10] finger in. I didn't know what to deal with. I couldn't be open about it. I couldn't come to you and say, and I [00:33:15] think, I think we, we'd had some chats, but not to the level of just how [00:33:20] bad it really was. Does that make sense? And so I remember going through hardships in my own [00:33:25] life and not being able to see the rest of the world through a, through a.[00:33:30]

A focused lens. You know, when you're, when you're having hardships [00:33:35] at home, things begin to get fuzzy. Things begin to get [00:33:40] distorted. And, um, you know, I remember when you, um, stepped [00:33:45] down from the church, um, there were things that we didn't know. You [00:33:50] know, there were things that we didn't know that was going on in your life.

I remember when your parents passed away, [00:33:55] I mean, it was heavy on you. It was all over you. It affected [00:34:00] who you were to the core. And, um, talk us through that for just a minute, because I [00:34:05] remember, um, it was your mother that passed away first. Correct.

Lonnie: That's correct,

Curtis: [00:34:10] And then your father just weeks later and it, and it wrecked [00:34:15] you.

Lonnie: Mm-hmm. Right. [00:34:20] Well, was jokingly saying early on that, um, [00:34:25] we had, um. A bumpy start there at the [00:34:30] church getting off the ground. And, um, we had a bumpy [00:34:35] ending, uh, a bumpy closure as well. I'm not sure. You know, [00:34:40] we, we all, we all attempted to put the best, uh, the [00:34:45] best appearance we could on it.

Uh, certainly do [00:34:50] anything to, to harm or to hurt, uh, the, the church that [00:34:55] we had poured our lives into for 23 years, and [00:35:00] certainly would never want to do anything that would, uh, harm or hurt, [00:35:05] um, the kingdom, the kingdom of God, um, and the kingdom work. [00:35:10] But it was a bumpy ending. And there were several things that, [00:35:15] that, uh, we were dealing, that we were dealing with. Um, [00:35:20] uh, first of all, uh, we, were, we were dealing with [00:35:25] a. With, with a difficult, uh, marriage [00:35:30] relationship. Um, it's hard to say, uh, to even put that in words. [00:35:35] Um, there was, um, [00:35:40] no moral issues at all. nothing [00:35:45] of a moral nature. it, uh, was just, um, [00:35:50] relational difficulty, um, that [00:35:55] compounded, uh, o over the years.

And, [00:36:00] um, ultimately, [00:36:05] um, after I left the church, after I resigned, uh, [00:36:10] ly resulted in, in, in divorce. Um. [00:36:15] It was an immoral issue on, for, for any a, [00:36:20] of us in that situation. But, uh, the, the relational difficulty, [00:36:25] um, just, um, compounded and [00:36:30] we, we weren't able to resolve it. Uh, in addition to [00:36:35] that, in the later years of the church, I became pretty much [00:36:40] primary caregiver for, two of my, uh, two of my, [00:36:45] my parents. I had a sister that was some distance away and she assisted, [00:36:50] uh, but I became primary caregiver, uh, them. [00:36:55] that all extended over a couple years or three. Um. [00:37:00] And during that point in time, um, I, I, I thought I was [00:37:05] doing, uh, everything I could at the church and probably was, but, [00:37:10] um, I was pastoring during the day and, uh, [00:37:15] would go over to the, to their condominium at eight o'clock at night and spend the night there [00:37:20] with them, and they get up, do it again. And, um, then in the, the, [00:37:25] the, the midst of all that as well, uh, dealing with, uh, some difficult, uh, [00:37:30] difficult, uh, marital relationships, dealing with all of [00:37:35] that, and then trying to pastor the church. And, um, there came a point in [00:37:40] time when, when I realized that, uh, that, you know, that I was [00:37:45] done, uh, there at the church. And, um, [00:37:50] so, you know, I tendered my resignation. Um, [00:37:55] and, uh, I, I, I remember my last message was on Easter Sunday. [00:38:00] And, um, left, walked off the, walked off the [00:38:05] platform and, um, you know, out the back door and got my car and drove [00:38:10] away. Um, so there was a, a, a, a lot of [00:38:15] things that, um, that I was dealing with. Um, [00:38:20] so, uh, that is still very [00:38:25] difficult to, you know, to, to talk about. Um, [00:38:30] while there was no moral failure, certainly there's relational failure, [00:38:35] um, and that's, uh, that, that's very painful. [00:38:40] I met with all the appropriate [00:38:45] denominational officials, uh, very quickly, got in touch with them [00:38:50] and, uh. Indicated that I was certainly willing to surrender my credentials [00:38:55] if that was, if that was needed, if that was necessary. Um, [00:39:00] and there's no need to go into all the

Curtis: Sure. Sure.

Lonnie: uh, I did meet with, [00:39:05] there was a determination made by our, by [00:39:10] our general board that, um, that that would not be [00:39:15] necessary given the, the circumstances and situations that would not be necessary. [00:39:20] Um, I did, uh, conclude personally that I, I, I [00:39:25] wouldn't, I wouldn't pastor again, um, in a, in a, [00:39:30] in a full-time, uh, capacity that, uh, I wouldn't do that.

I [00:39:35] was able to continue at the college, uh, where I taught for 26 years in the, [00:39:40] uh, ministry department. Um, uh, Dr. Smith and [00:39:45] Dr. Kelly, uh, very gracious and, um. was [00:39:50] allowed to continue there, and I was there 26 years continue to that [00:39:55] capacity. So I did have ministry opportunities, [00:40:00] uh, but, uh, basically determined that, uh, I, I just didn't feel that I would, I would [00:40:05] pastor again.

And, uh, I've done a couple of interims, of course, uh, or two or three, [00:40:10] but have not assumed that role. Um, [00:40:15] again, um, my, um, [00:40:20] my real heart is to, um, to [00:40:25] encourage and, and to support and come alongside, uh, pastors. Um, [00:40:30] we never know really, uh, [00:40:35] sometimes what pastors are dealing with and, um. [00:40:40] And so really that's, um, that's, [00:40:45] that, that's the story. And, um, [00:40:50] you know, I'm sure that's shocking for to some, to hear that, [00:40:55] but I've had to work through, um, [00:41:00] work through, uh, failure.

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: [00:41:05] Uh, there's, you know, I, I, I failed certainly relationally, not morally,

Curtis: [00:41:10] Let me, let me, let me just insert right here because I wanna, I wanna give the [00:41:15] audience a chance to hear from our perspective because, um, [00:41:20] you, seriously, we looked up to [00:41:25] you, I don't wanna say we looked up to you wrongly, but we [00:41:30] saw God do some unbelievable things through your leadership, [00:41:35] and there were things going on at home that nobody knew about.

Is that, is that fair to [00:41:40] say? I. So, so I remember, you know, as a [00:41:45] young man looking to you. And looking at your strength and your [00:41:50] faith and, and having to work through some of those hard things. When, when some of these [00:41:55] things began to reveal themselves, number one, I'd never lost, um, somebody close in my [00:42:00] family to death.

I hadn't, so I didn't have an appreciation or an [00:42:05] understanding of that hardships. So when you went through that, [00:42:10] you know, let me just, let me just be the dumb layman and say, well, well, pastor's been [00:42:15] through lots of death. He's preached lots of funerals. He's used to death, he's used to that. Never putting [00:42:20] in perspective that these are your parents and that you're caring for them night after [00:42:25] night, after night until they're gone.

Like, I couldn't put that helmet on. Does that make [00:42:30] sense? So, so as a layman, I'm looking at that thinking, well, he's my superhero. He can do [00:42:35] this. He's fine. I, I'm just being honest with you, not knowing all the [00:42:40] difficulties that were going on at home. And then, and then later on, after [00:42:45] you had stepped down and understood that there was a divorce, and, and, and not only were you [00:42:50] grieving the loss of your parents, you were, you were [00:42:55] grieving the loss of your marriage, and then on top of that, [00:43:00] grieving the loss of your ministry.

Like, as a dumb young [00:43:05] layman, I couldn't feel that weight. And so years later, I [00:43:10] want to tell you personally, I'm sorry that as you know, somebody that, [00:43:15] you know, we worked close together in that church and we did a lot of things, but I, I had [00:43:20] so much maturity and wisdom to gain [00:43:25] and I've watched you over the years.

I just want you to know that I appreciate [00:43:30] you and I have, and then, then, you know, remarrying and losing my wife Michael [00:43:35] has, has, oh my goodness, opened my [00:43:40] eyes

Lonnie: Sure.

Curtis: where I see so much more clearly [00:43:45] now

Lonnie: Mm-hmm.

Curtis: to pain and to hardship and to grief. [00:43:50] And I can look at you through so much different lenses now, [00:43:55] which makes my appreciation for you even skyrocket.[00:44:00]

And what God has done in and through you, and I'm not the only one. You wanna [00:44:05] know why I wanted you to do this podcast, because I'm telling you, I'm not the only one who [00:44:10] holds you in such high regard for what you've done in the past and, and [00:44:15] how you have come through these hardships and how you continue to serve faithfully.[00:44:20]

And, and I know you're, you know, you're never gonna brag on all the things you do, but you've got your hands in [00:44:25] everything. It's not that you're not in ministry, you're, you're continuing to minister [00:44:30] for the denomination and, and you're doing all kinds of stuff. And you're still [00:44:35] my, somebody asked me the other day, true story.

She said, who's your, they said, who's your favorite? Who's your favorite [00:44:40] preacher? And without, without missing a beat, I said, Lonnie Potts. Really? I said, [00:44:45] absolutely. And I then I said, you know who my second favorite preacher is, is Doug Campbell. They're [00:44:50] made from the same cloth, from the same area, and they just, they just bring the [00:44:55] word consistently.

Now, some of my, some of my close pastor [00:45:00] friends, they're gonna be offended.

Lonnie: Yeah.

Curtis: So, so I better throw, you know, like a Wendell Brown in [00:45:05] there, your close third, whatever.

Lonnie: No, Wendell's great.

Curtis: Uh, [00:45:10] John Schu. I mean, I got a lot of pastor friends, but, um, I mean, without missing a beat, my [00:45:15] favorite preacher is Lonnie Potts. And, um, man, I want you to know [00:45:20] how much you're loved and appreciated.

Lonnie: Thank you. [00:45:25] Well, it's been a journey. Uh, you know, it's certainly been a journey for sure. I don't, I [00:45:30] do wanna say that I don't believe it was the ministry that [00:45:35] crashed, uh, the marriage. I don't really believe it was that, um, [00:45:40] God was able to do some miraculous things in spite of the difficulties [00:45:45] there, there. And again, it's still difficult [00:45:50] and, and it will always be difficult, um, to work through. [00:45:55] Um, you know, where do you go? What do you do? What do [00:46:00] you, how do you, how do you deal with it? I, I remember when I [00:46:05] left. Walked off the platform on Easter Sunday morning at, uh, at [00:46:10] Crossroads. Got in my car and drove away. I mean, I, I, I didn't know, you know, where'd I even go to [00:46:15] church? do I do? I remember, I, I sat for a [00:46:20] year, uh, in the balcony of the Grove City Church of the Nazarene [00:46:25] for a, for a year. And, uh, it was very interesting. Nobody in the church for a year [00:46:30] approached me. but I sat there for a year and, uh. I

Curtis: [00:46:35] That's amazing.

Lonnie: of that church later, we, we had a chance to talk.

And I, [00:46:40] I said, you've been, you were my pastor for a year. And of course he has this strange look on his [00:46:45] face. And I explained, uh, the situation to him, but, but he spoke [00:46:50] to my heart. Uh, God spoke to my heart there. And, uh, but where do I go? And then I [00:46:55] began to make my way back, setting the balcony in our church [00:47:00] in Columbus for a while.

And, uh, I would, I would, um, [00:47:05] come late and leave early. Uh, I just didn't wanna face anybody. [00:47:10] And, um, finally, you know, I said, I gotta come [00:47:15] home. And, um, that's when I ended up back really at the [00:47:20] church in Waverly that I, pastored in the eighties and Doug Campbell was pastored there and they [00:47:25] created a home for me there. Um, in the midst of all that, I [00:47:30] had to work through, you know what. What do you [00:47:35] do when you fail? And again, I'm gonna say again, there was no moral failure. [00:47:40] was relational failure. And that [00:47:45] the fact, you know, and, and, and we talk about God can do anything, and [00:47:50] we're always, you know, we always look for the happily ever after [00:47:55] ending.

And, uh, thank the Lord that, that the [00:48:00] gospel is that, and that one day in the new

Curtis: Amen.

Lonnie: the new Earth, it's gonna be [00:48:05] happily ever after. And all this other stuff we've dealt with, [00:48:10] will, will be resolved. God is not only, uh, redeeming, uh, [00:48:15] redeeming us, but he is also restoring his, uh, his creation. And [00:48:20] so we're thankful.

I'm thankful, to be a part of that. But when a, when a Christian [00:48:25] fails, and I'm not even gonna, you know, say Pastor now, but when a Christian [00:48:30] fails. Um, in whatever capacity, uh, how do you, [00:48:35] how do you, how do you resolve that? How do you deal with that? It, it all, it seems [00:48:40] to me that the stakes are much higher.

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: when, [00:48:45] when that, when, when that's the case. And so how do you [00:48:50] resolve that? How do you resolve the grief of being [00:48:55] separated from, you know, from, from the church [00:49:00] leaving the church behind, that you pastored all those years, the grief of, uh, [00:49:05] family separation. Um, [00:49:10] how do you work your way through all of that? Uh, and I'll tell you, it's, it, it, it, [00:49:15] it, it wasn't easy and it, it hasn't been easy. [00:49:20] Even EE even now, um, I'm not a victim. I [00:49:25] don't have anything that I'm gonna wallow in. Um, but [00:49:30] the, the, to be able to recover and to get back where you, where [00:49:35] you wanna be or you feel like you need to be, it, it's a challenge.

Curtis: Sure.

Lonnie: And so in the [00:49:40] much the same way, when we made the transition from [00:49:45] Jefferson to, to crossroads, I found, uh, we [00:49:50] found direction in, in God's word. Uh, the only [00:49:55] place I knew to look for direction, uh, again, was in, in, [00:50:00] in God's word. Now I realize that, um, [00:50:05] the whole issue of divorce, much less, uh, [00:50:10] remarriage is, um, is a hot button [00:50:15] topic, uh, in, in the Christian world.

I understand [00:50:20] that. Um, I understand that. Um. [00:50:25] I had, uh, a pastor, uh, come to [00:50:30] me very, you know, and, and, and in good faith say, you know, uh, I, I, [00:50:35] I could never have you to come to our church because of, [00:50:40] uh, because you are divorced. Uh, and I understand [00:50:45] that. And there was no, there was no anger or animosity and no, there nothing in me.

You know, [00:50:50] I understand that. Um, but yet [00:50:55] still left with, if you are a, and I'm gonna say a [00:51:00] Christian

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: that is ex experienced [00:51:05] failure, uh, whatever it is, you're still left with that. And how do you [00:51:10] resolve that? And so the only way that I knew to [00:51:15] resolve was to go back to the word of God. And I, and I understand all the scripture dealing with divorce remarriage, I [00:51:20] understand that, but I'm still, I still gotta deal with failure. And [00:51:25] so I began to try to look, um, [00:51:30] scripture, uh, for, for narrative and, and, uh, [00:51:35] believers, if we wanna call it that, the Old Testament, new Testament that had failed and, [00:51:40] uh, how, how that, uh, was dealt with in [00:51:45] scripture. I know that in scripture we have, we have [00:51:50] prescription, and I know we have prescriptive, uh, [00:51:55] teachings regarding divorce and remarriage.

I understand that. Uh, we also [00:52:00] have description and, uh, narrative that describes in, [00:52:05] in, in, in, in, in human form. what [00:52:10] ha what happened or has happened to, to a believer that fails. And, [00:52:15] and so I began to look at that Old Testament, new Testament. [00:52:20] so I, I'll, I'll just share this. I know we've gone on a long

Curtis: No, you're fine. This is good [00:52:25] stuff.

Lonnie: but I began to look at that and, uh, so I began to [00:52:30] look, I looked in the Old Testament and I, I looked at, I looked at Jacob [00:52:35] in the Old Testament, and we know Jacob's story begins [00:52:40] there in, um, in Genesis, uh, 24 when, [00:52:45] uh, Rebecca delivers Jacob and Esau and Jacob [00:52:50] comes out holding on Esau's heel, and they name him Jacob, you [00:52:55] know, the, the, the, the heel snatcher.

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: And, uh, [00:53:00] Jacob, um, has significant [00:53:05] failure, uh, in his life in, in many ways. He's the liar who was [00:53:10] lied to. He was the, the fraud who was defrauded. I mean, it just [00:53:15] goes on and on and on and and on. Um, so there was [00:53:20] failure there. Um. What I [00:53:25] discovered, uh, when I looked at the entirety of his story, [00:53:30] the narrative that while there was failure, [00:53:35] um, we, we have to say that failure [00:53:40] Jacob, that [00:53:45] failure is described in his story. [00:53:50] Um, but then we discover as we continue with the story that, [00:53:55] um, his story, that although failure is described, [00:54:00] the, in his, a part of his story, is it, it [00:54:05] didn't, um, it didn't ultimately [00:54:10] define him. [00:54:15] We, we have him, uh, on, on, on his journey with God, and we find him at, uh, [00:54:20] Bethel and at Bethel is, you know, if you remember the, the, the [00:54:25] ladder to heaven and all those things in the pillow that was stone and all that stuff. But what [00:54:30] we, but the Jacob we find at, uh, at Bethel has a transactional view of [00:54:35] God. And so it was, if God, if you'll do this, I'll do that. [00:54:40] But just a few chapters later, we find him at the Jaic [00:54:45] River and um, [00:54:50] he's not transactional anymore. God is wrestling with him [00:54:55] at the Jaak River,

Curtis: Mm-hmm. Right.

Lonnie: and, and Jacob doesn't bargain [00:55:00] with the God. Jacob just clings to God and says, [00:55:05] I won't let you go until you bless me.

Curtis: Hm.

Lonnie: And [00:55:10] God said, um. What is your name? [00:55:15] Well, it's failure. [00:55:20] It's the heel grabber. And he said, oh no, it's not that anymore. [00:55:25] It's Israel. Uh, [00:55:30] you have struggled with God and man and prevailed.

Curtis: Amen. That's good. That's really [00:55:35] good.

Lonnie: And so while, while failure described his life, it did not [00:55:40] define ultimately, uh, who he was. [00:55:45] Uh, we do find his name in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews chapter 11. [00:55:50] So it did, but, and it [00:55:55] didn't determine his ultimate destiny. [00:56:00] You know, there's a lot of ways to [00:56:05] fail.

Curtis: Amen.

Lonnie: But it didn't, [00:56:10] Jacob, it, it described him, but it didn't define

Curtis: Mm-hmm.[00:56:15]

Lonnie: and it didn't determine final destiny. God had a [00:56:20] destiny for him. And, you know, the patriarch and the father, the tribes of [00:56:25] Israel, the 12 sons, you know, I saw the same thing. [00:56:30] So I saw the same thing with David.

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: Uh, [00:56:35] failure describes his life. [00:56:40] When we go into Second Samuel chapter 11, and the, the failure with [00:56:45] Bathsheba, and then second Samuel, chapter 12, and the [00:56:50] visit from, uh, the prophet. Uh, so it [00:56:55] described his life. And, and, and don't think for a minute, I'm giving, I'm giving [00:57:00] license to fail.

Curtis: No, I understand.

Lonnie: I'm not giving license to fail.

I don't think we have to [00:57:05] fail.

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: I don't think Jacob had to be a liar and David didn't have [00:57:10] to to do what, uh, enter into an adulterous relationship [00:57:15] with, uh, with Bathsheba. But, but he did fail. And so failure [00:57:20] describes the life of David. We, we very rarely think of the life of David without thinking about the failure with Bathsheba. [00:57:25] You know, we can, we can equate the other things, but, uh, but it [00:57:30] described it, but it didn't ultimately, it didn't [00:57:35] ultimately define him, although he experienced great consequences. Sure, his failure [00:57:40] and Jacob experienced great consequences for his failure. [00:57:45] There are consequences, but again, it didn't define him.

[00:57:50] He also is in Hebrews chapter 11, the Great Hall of [00:57:55] Faith and what David discovered in his failure, [00:58:00] and, and, and I of parsed this out, that when he [00:58:05] failed. Uh, there were, there were three things that David, that, that David [00:58:10] experienced back to God. One was guilt. He owned it, [00:58:15] but the second was grace and he received it, [00:58:20] and the third was going on with his life. And so there were a [00:58:25] lot of consequences there. But God allowed, God [00:58:30] mercifully brought him to a place of and ownership [00:58:35] of his failure, and then him grace [00:58:40] and let him go on. And you [00:58:45] see, when a Christian fails, [00:58:50] the, [00:58:55] there's the same sort of thing. There has to be [00:59:00] guilt and ownership, whatever the failure is. [00:59:05] But we can't spur the grace of God.

Curtis: Hmm.[00:59:10]

Lonnie: With guilt comes grace. [00:59:15] And with grace, David had the opportunity to go on. [00:59:20] didn't have to give up Bathsheba. I dunno how I can explain that [00:59:25] theologically,

Curtis: Exactly.

Lonnie: he didn't lose his [00:59:30] crown.

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: I don't, I I know what we would've done

Curtis: Right.[00:59:35]

Lonnie: with him

Curtis: Yep.

Lonnie: and before long we'd see him out in the field [00:59:40] fighting again. And it wasn't that David was this willful sinner just sinning every [00:59:45] day of his life. Uh, but he fell [00:59:50] and tho guilt grace and going on, um, [00:59:55] is, um, a key [01:00:00] to moving forward. But I am gonna share with you. That going on [01:00:05] can be awfully hard

Curtis: Yeah.

Lonnie: and even determine that we have [01:00:10] the right to go on. [01:00:15] But if God says you can go on and [01:00:20] God told David you could go on, who are we to tell him he couldn't?

Curtis: [01:00:25] Amen.

Lonnie: And then in the New Testament, I'll try to do with this very quickly [01:00:30] I saw Peter, you know, if we really want a [01:00:35] classic New Testament experience, we recognize that Jacob [01:00:40] and uh David are in the Old Testament.

We understand that. But um, [01:00:45] but if we really want a classic New Testament example of, of a c of, of a believer, [01:00:50] if you will, failed. It certainly was. It certainly was, [01:00:55] was Peter. Um, you know, his story. I, I [01:01:00] I, I, I like the Luke and account of it, Luke's story of, um, [01:01:05] and, um, Luke, I believe Luke chapter, [01:01:10] chapter 11, when they are together at the, uh, [01:01:15] remember they're together at the Last Supper. [01:01:20] And, um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, [01:01:25] uh, discussion that's going on. And [01:01:30] Jesus and the Lord said, Simon. Simon. Oh, it's interesting. [01:01:35] didn't call him, uh, Peter the Rock, Simon Seman. [01:01:40] Indeed, Satan has asked for you that he may sift you as [01:01:45] wheat, but this is a prayer that Jesus [01:01:50] prayed. That doesn't get enough publicity, I think, if I wanna use that word. [01:01:55] But he said, but I have prayed for you

Curtis: Hmm.[01:02:00]

Lonnie: that your faith should not fail. [01:02:05] And when you have returned to me, not [01:02:10] if you return, but when you have returned to me, [01:02:15] strengthen your brethren. And Peter said, Lord, I'm ready to go with you [01:02:20] both to prison and to death. Uh, then he said, I tell you, Peter, [01:02:25] the rooster shall not crow this day before. You [01:02:30] will deny me three times. You'll deny me three ti three times [01:02:35] that you even know me.

Curtis: Hmm.

Lonnie: What do we take away [01:02:40] from that? Uh, I've been pondering this a lot because I'm still on my journey of going on. [01:02:45] And why do we [01:02:50] ponder here? What?

Curtis: Well, I know I relate to Peter more than anybody [01:02:55] that, that stubbornness, that pridefulness, all those things. Man, God's had to knock [01:03:00] me down a few times. I relate.

Lonnie: I think we all can. I think that's why [01:03:05] we like Peter, we can relate to them. Here's some things I've just [01:03:10] thought about recently. It's nice to have a new thought once in a while, but here's some [01:03:15] things that I've thought about recently as I've, I've read this and hadn't really thought about before. [01:03:20] Did Peter fail? Yes. [01:03:25] Peter failed. He failed. under the [01:03:30] pressure of, of fear

Curtis: Hmm.

Lonnie: the mob. He [01:03:35] failed. Does failure describe [01:03:40] Peter? Sure. Failure's an aspect [01:03:45] of it life. It it, it describes an aspect of his life. Anytime we fail, [01:03:50] de there's a description that, a failure in our life. It describes [01:03:55] him. But I just thought about this recently, [01:04:00] Curtis and better minds and better theologians than me, um, [01:04:05] have the right to not agree with me here. [01:04:10] But I asked myself this question, did Peter fail? Yes, he did. [01:04:15] I mean, that's a pretty big failure

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: to deny, you know, the Lord. [01:04:20] But Jesus told him he was going to do that. [01:04:25] It's interesting to me when I look at this and here, here's the new thoughts I've had, and I'll try to bring [01:04:30] this in for a landing. You always know I, I've been long-winded.

Curtis: [01:04:35] Hey, you know what I, I, I, I'm just telling you right now, I'm glad [01:04:40] that you're just going for it because this is the guy that I told everybody, he is my favorite preacher, and you're just [01:04:45] taking us there. You're teaching us, and so you just, you go right ahead. I,

Lonnie: [01:04:50] Isn't it interesting? And these are my own thoughts and uh, better theologians can [01:04:55] debate this than me, but as I read this and just thought about this yesterday, [01:05:00] Jesus didn't pray [01:05:05] that Peter wouldn't him.

Curtis: hmm.[01:05:10]

Lonnie: Did you? Peter? Jesus doesn't pray. [01:05:15] Peter, I'm praying [01:05:20] for, for you. Satan wants you, Peter, [01:05:25] he wants to sift you, Peter, and we'll come [01:05:30] back that in a minute. Jesus didn't pray. Peter, I [01:05:35] pray that you won't deny me. He prayed. [01:05:40] Peter, I have prayed for you. [01:05:45] Not that you don't, you're not gonna deny me. [01:05:50] I prayed for you that your faith won't fail.

Curtis: Hmm. [01:05:55] That's good. That's good.

Lonnie: ultimate failure is [01:06:00] is to fail in faith. [01:06:05] Peter, I prayed for you [01:06:10] that you, your faith won't fail. [01:06:15] Now, we, we, we, we go to John and we know the three [01:06:20] denials and the, the, the campfire and, and the restoration and all those things. So the [01:06:25] question is, did Peter's faith fail To some degree, [01:06:30] sure. But Notice that Jesus didn't [01:06:35] say if you return,

but when.

you [01:06:40] return. Peter, Jesus knew that [01:06:45] Peter was going to deny him and fail at that point, but Jesus [01:06:50] evidently also knew that Peter's faith and love [01:06:55] for him in spite of his failure [01:07:00] under the pressure of Satan and fear, [01:07:05] Jesus knew that his love and faith in [01:07:10] him, that ultimately that was not gonna fail.

Curtis: [01:07:15] That's good.

Lonnie: Peter, do you [01:07:20] love me? Oh, Lord, you know I love you, Peter. Do you love me? I know we know the, the, [01:07:25] the terms, philo and all

Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Lonnie: Peter, do you agape me? No, I philo you [01:07:30] Phil, Philo, you, you know, I got it. But there's [01:07:35] that last one when [01:07:40] When Jesus said, Peter, do you love me more than these? [01:07:45] And it says, Peter was grieved [01:07:50] and he said, [01:07:55] Lord, you know all things [01:08:00] you know I love you. [01:08:05] And Jesus accepted that. No, I don't [01:08:10] understand how it is that a Christian, that when we fail. [01:08:15] The [01:08:20] way Jacob did, the way David did, the way Peter did, [01:08:25] that we can fail, but we still love Jesus. [01:08:30] You see a Jesus' prayer [01:08:35] for us is that we won't stumble and mess up, [01:08:40] but Jesus' prayer for us is that in the [01:08:45] midst of the stumbling and the, your faith won't fail.

Curtis: Amen. [01:08:50] Amen. So good.[01:08:55]

Lonnie: Remember what it said for, uh, is a substance of things [01:09:00] or faith is, you know what we hope for in the substance of things not seen. by it [01:09:05] the elders re. Received a good report for without faith, it [01:09:10] is impossible to please God. But those that come to him must believe he [01:09:15] exists and that he is a rewarder of those who, um, [01:09:20] trust him, believe in him. [01:09:25] I just find it interesting. [01:09:30] Jesus didn't fail, pray that Peter wouldn't deny him. He knew he was going [01:09:35] to, but Peter don't [01:09:40] fail in faith. Now, [01:09:45] isn't it interesting that, um, much later, a much older Peter, and when [01:09:50] he writes his letter, um, writes his letter, this would be second [01:09:55] Peter, chapter five, verse eight. What did he say? [01:10:00] Be sober.

Curtis: Hmm.

Lonnie: Be vigilant. I. The [01:10:05] devil roaring is roaming about, uh, [01:10:10] seeking whom he may devour. You think that [01:10:15] might tie back to a little bit to,

Curtis: Absolutely.

Lonnie: ass for you,

Curtis: [01:10:20] Yeah, absolutely.

Lonnie: praying your faith won't fail.

Curtis: Yep.

Lonnie: [01:10:25] Um, I think it was, uh, John Piper that said this as he was [01:10:30] ex executing, that he said, what is it the devil [01:10:35] wants to eat? [01:10:40] It's not our flesh and bones, it's our

Curtis: Mm-hmm. [01:10:45] Yep.

Lonnie: That's what he wants to eat. [01:10:50] And so I guess my word for those of us that [01:10:55] have failed failure describes us. [01:11:00] Failure need not [01:11:05] define us because it is [01:11:10] faith in the love and the mercy and [01:11:15] the grace of Almighty God that ultimately [01:11:20] determines our destiny.

Curtis: Amen. Thank you,[01:11:25]

and you've helped me, [01:11:30] doc, and I know you're gonna help others because this journey [01:11:35] can't happen without failure,

Lonnie: Mm-hmm.

Curtis: and it may [01:11:40] be I. Different, it may be hidden. The thing that I'm [01:11:45] finding out as I'm becoming more open and vulnerable is how much [01:11:50] hidden there is under the surface.

Lonnie: Yes.

Curtis: And, and, and how, [01:11:55] you know, when my late wife Michael, made the statement, which is why the podcast exists, [01:12:00] that if you'll run into the hardest thing you've ever been through, [01:12:05] God's gonna meet you there

Lonnie: Oh, yes.

Curtis: and do a work that [01:12:10] you've never seen before.

He's gonna meet you and there's gonna [01:12:15] be a healing and a growth at that hard spot. And then she goes on and finishes that [01:12:20] statement with, because someday somebody is gonna be at that same spot and you're gonna [01:12:25] be fearless and you'll be able to go there. Because for years [01:12:30] I ran from those things. I'll pray for you.

I love you. I'll pray for you, but I can't [01:12:35] go to that hard spot with you because I had fuzzy lenses I couldn't see [01:12:40] clearly. And my wife says, when you allow God to do that, you're gonna [01:12:45] run into the fire and you're gonna meet somebody in their hardest spot, [01:12:50] and God's gonna help you allow them to heal right where they're at.

It changed me, doc. I'm [01:12:55] telling you. It's changed me. My lenses are [01:13:00] becoming clear. I see the world differently. I see you differently. I [01:13:05] see so many of us around me differently. God's helping us. [01:13:10] And I, I, I appreciate you going there today. I knew there was a little bit of [01:13:15] nervousness about, you know, if we could get there, if we could go to that, that deep spot.

But thank you for doing [01:13:20] that. And, um, you're gonna help somebody today. You're gonna help somebody [01:13:25] today.

Lonnie: Know your love, my friend.

Curtis: You are, you are loved by me and by [01:13:30] many, and I I really appreciate you.

Lonnie: Thank you.

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